Token costs and limits

This interview was recorded for GOTO Unscripted.
https://gotopia.tech

Will McGugan - Creator of Toad & the Python Packages, Rich, Textual & PyFilesystem
Olimpiu Pop - Technologist & Tech Journalist

ORIGINAL TALK TITLE
The Python Dev Who Built Rich, Textual & now Toad Just Redesigned How You Talk to AI

Check out more here:
https://gotopia.tech/articles/437

RESOURCES
Will
https://mastodon.social/@willmcgugan
https://x.com/willmcgugan
https://bsky.app/profile/willmcgugan.bsky.social
https://github.com/willmcgugan
https://www.linkedin.com/in/willmcgugan
https://willmcgugan.github.io

Olimpiu
https://x.com/olimpiupop
https://github.com/zroll
https://www.linkedin.com/in/olimpiupop

Links
https://www.textualize.io
https://www.batrachian.ai
https://github.com/textualize/rich
https://github.com/Textualize/textual
https://zed.dev
https://willmcgugan.github.io/toad-released
https://willmcgugan.github.io/announcing-toad

DESCRIPTION
In this GOTO Unscripted episode, Olimpiu Pop sits down with Will McGugan — Python PSF Fellow and creator of Rich (4+ billion downloads) and Textual — to demo his sabbatical project: Toad, a slick terminal-based universal frontend for AI coding agents.
Will's frustration was simple and justified: every major AI coding tool (Claude Code, Gemini, Codex) was built on top-tier models but wrapped in a UI that looked like it was designed in 2004. Toad fixes that by using the Agent Client Protocol (ACP) as a standardized plug-in layer, giving users elegant prompt editing, proper streaming markdown rendering, beautiful tables, syntax highlighting, and a hybrid shell-plus-AI interface — all in the terminal, where developers already live.

The conversation gets sharply honest when the topic turns to AI and developer craft. Will — a 30-year coding veteran who admits it's not instinctive for him to reach for AI — shares a clear-eyed view of its strengths and limits: AI is extraordinarily fast at anything well-defined and unambiguous, but still struggles with genuinely novel problems.

His conclusion?
Most of what software developers do day-to-day isn't actually novel — it's pattern assembly — and that's precisely where AI shines. The future of coding isn't replacement; it's liberation from the mechanical grind. Oh, and the podcast host literally reading out "music intro here" because stage directions ended up in the transcript? That one's a cautionary tale for the ages.

RECOMMENDED BOOKS
Will McGugan • Beginning Python Games Development 2nd ed. • https://amzn.to/4ebBfxu
Will McGugan • Beginning Game Development with Python and Pygame • https://amzn.to/4cyVdB3
Sam Keen • Clean Architecture with Python • https://amzn.to/4pBT5g0
Eric Evans • Domain-Driven Design • https://amzn.to/3tnGhwm
Naomi Ceder • The Quick Python Book • https://amzn.to/3zwdDOa

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