Abu Ghraib and standards of conduct

What does it take to lead when the mission is hard, the stakes are life-and-death, and nobody is watching?

In this extraordinary episode, Tucker Hamilton sits down with two of the most consequential figures in modern Air Force history — General (Ret.) David Goldfein, former Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force, and Dr. Heather Wilson, former Secretary of the Air Force and current President of UTEP — Air Force Academy classmates who reunited at the Pentagon 35 years after their cadet days to write Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership.

From Goldfein's F-16 shoot-down over Serbia to Wilson's battles on Capitol Hill and in the halls of the Pentagon, they have lived the kind of leadership not taught in classrooms — the kind forged in adversity, shaped by humility, and proven under pressure.

In this conversation, they unpack what servant leadership actually looks like when the cost is real, why the most powerful leaders are the ones who put others first, and what the next generation of leaders needs to hear right now.