Kastrup vs. Vervaeke: Mind Upload and the Shadow (Round 2 Debate)
Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal
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Bernardo Kastrup and John Vervaeke explore mind uploading, shadow integration, and the nature of consciousness, debating philosophical positions and practical implications. The conversation weaves insights from Vedanta, psychedelics, and modern neuroscience while probing personal growth and the future of spirituality.
- 00:00:00 - Introduction
- 00:02:32 - Summary of Round 1
- 00:10:29 - Best counter to John's and Bernardo's position
- 00:28:42 - Vedanta, Brahma, and Lucid Dreaming
- 00:40:45 - Local vs global consciousness, and meta-consciousness
- 00:43:40 - Psychedelics and experiencing "mind at large"
- 00:46:10 - Whitehead and prehension
- 00:51:40 - John and Bernardo have moved closer (philosophically) to one another
- 00:55:39 - On Karl Friston's "inference"
- 00:52:30 - How to improve as an interviewer
- 00:57:46 - Transjectivity, and rejecting both the blank slate and romanticism
- 01:02:42 - Bernardo started out as an "objectivist"
- 01:08:15 - Mind Uploading is nonsense
- 01:12:58 - Joscha Bach knows nothing about consciousness
- 01:24:12 - There's no "simulation" of consciousness. Who's the illusion occurring to?
- 01:29:56 - Growth doesn't stop when you're 20. We need more than the propositional.
- 01:36:03 - "Idolatry of the nerds" and how "thinking" is just one function of the psyche.
- 01:39:25 - Respecting the elderly
- 01:41:52 - Having mode vs. the Being mode
- 01:48:05 - Love is a kind of knowing. On "agape"
- 01:58:30 - Love is a part of nature, but not the only part.
- 02:05:54 - How to integrate the Shadow
- 02:10:57 - The processes that make us adaptive, make us self deceptive.
- 02:13:18 - Internal family systems therapy
- 02:21:08 - Curt's personal confession
- 02:28:12 - We think we must "win" but we must surrender. Surrender to what you are.
- 02:34:40 - Trying not to try
- 02:40:05 - Personal stories of darkness, from John and Bernardo
- 02:50:50 - Self knowledge, self acceptance, and "participating" in this world
- 02:54:34 - Bernardo and John are the opposite of how they seem. John is more "woo" and Bernardo is anti-"woo"
- 02:58:37 - Bernardo's shadow
- 03:01:35 - We need to reintegrate humor in spirituality
- 03:05:28 - How to build the modern religion?
- 03:33:44 - Where you can find more about John and Bernardo
- 03:39:36 - BONUS [MrChocolateCookie] The paradox of trying not to try
- 03:44:07 - BONUS [Queerdo] Veganism and spiritual bypassing
- 03:57:03 - BONUS [David] What did you enjoy most about this conversation?
- 03:59:33 - BONUS John takes Curt through a breathing exercise
- 04:01:28 - BONUS The theolocution process is vehement but filled with love
SPONSORS:
- Brilliant: 20% off at https://brilliant.org/TOE
- Algo.com: supply chain AI at http://algo.com
- Patreon: support conversations at https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal
- Crypto (anonymous): https://tinyurl.com/cryptoTOE
- PayPal: https://tinyurl.com/paypalTOE
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt
- Discord: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs
- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/better-left-unsaid-with-curt-jaimungal/id1521758802
- Pandora: https://pdora.co/33b9lfP
- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e
- Reddit r/TheoriesOfEverything: https://reddit.com/r/theoriesofeverything
RESOURCES:
- YouTube: https://youtu.be/zw6BFDJ765w
- John Vervaeke's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke
- Bernardo Kastrup's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/bernardokastrup
- What I've Learned on Cows #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGG-A80Tl5g
- What I've Learned on Cows #2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdrhpThqlCo
- Documentary Better Left Unsaid: http://betterleftunsaidfilm.com
- 00:00:00 - Introduction
- 00:02:32 - Summary of Round 1
- 00:10:29 - Best counter to John's and Bernardo's position
- 00:28:42 - Vedanta, Brahma, and Lucid Dreaming
- 00:40:45 - Local vs global consciousness, and meta-consciousness
- 00:43:40 - Psychedelics and experiencing "mind at large"
- 00:46:10 - Whitehead and prehension
- 00:51:40 - John and Bernardo have moved closer (philosophically) to one another
- 00:55:39 - On Karl Friston's "inference"
- 00:52:30 - How to improve as an interviewer
- 00:57:46 - Transjectivity, and rejecting both the blank slate and romanticism
- 01:02:42 - Bernardo started out as an "objectivist"
- 01:08:15 - Mind Uploading is nonsense
- 01:12:58 - Joscha Bach knows nothing about consciousness
- 01:24:12 - There's no "simulation" of consciousness. Who's the illusion occurring to?
- 01:29:56 - Growth doesn't stop when you're 20. We need more than the propositional.
- 01:36:03 - "Idolatry of the nerds" and how "thinking" is just one function of the psyche.
- 01:39:25 - Respecting the elderly
- 01:41:52 - Having mode vs. the Being mode
- 01:48:05 - Love is a kind of knowing. On "agape"
- 01:58:30 - Love is a part of nature, but not the only part.
- 02:05:54 - How to integrate the Shadow
- 02:10:57 - The processes that make us adaptive, make us self deceptive.
- 02:13:18 - Internal family systems therapy
- 02:21:08 - Curt's personal confession
- 02:28:12 - We think we must "win" but we must surrender. Surrender to what you are.
- 02:34:40 - Trying not to try
- 02:40:05 - Personal stories of darkness, from John and Bernardo
- 02:50:50 - Self knowledge, self acceptance, and "participating" in this world
- 02:54:34 - Bernardo and John are the opposite of how they seem. John is more "woo" and Bernardo is anti-"woo"
- 02:58:37 - Bernardo's shadow
- 03:01:35 - We need to reintegrate humor in spirituality
- 03:05:28 - How to build the modern religion?
- 03:33:44 - Where you can find more about John and Bernardo
- 03:39:36 - BONUS [MrChocolateCookie] The paradox of trying not to try
- 03:44:07 - BONUS [Queerdo] Veganism and spiritual bypassing
- 03:57:03 - BONUS [David] What did you enjoy most about this conversation?
- 03:59:33 - BONUS John takes Curt through a breathing exercise
- 04:01:28 - BONUS The theolocution process is vehement but filled with love
SPONSORS:
- Brilliant: 20% off at https://brilliant.org/TOE
- Algo.com: supply chain AI at http://algo.com
- Patreon: support conversations at https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal
- Crypto (anonymous): https://tinyurl.com/cryptoTOE
- PayPal: https://tinyurl.com/paypalTOE
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt
- Discord: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs
- Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/better-left-unsaid-with-curt-jaimungal/id1521758802
- Pandora: https://pdora.co/33b9lfP
- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e
- Reddit r/TheoriesOfEverything: https://reddit.com/r/theoriesofeverything
RESOURCES:
- YouTube: https://youtu.be/zw6BFDJ765w
- John Vervaeke's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke
- Bernardo Kastrup's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/bernardokastrup
- What I've Learned on Cows #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGG-A80Tl5g
- What I've Learned on Cows #2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdrhpThqlCo
- Documentary Better Left Unsaid: http://betterleftunsaidfilm.com
Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal features long-form, technically detailed interviews with leading researchers in physics, mathematics, consciousness, and philosophy, exploring topics at the level of active research. For academics, graduate students, and anyone seeking depth beyond popular science.
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