The Power of Authenticity in Club Interviews

In the competitive landscape of private clubs, creating a strong, positive culture isn't just a nice-to-have—it's essential when attracting new members and the best talent. Jackie and Three Carpenter are longtime professionals in the club industry and are also authors of the book "People First." Using their years of experience in the private club industry, Three and Jackie are uniquely positioned to share the critical importance of fostering a people-centric culture in private clubs. Their insights offer valuable lessons for club leaders looking to elevate their club's employee experience and, by extension, member satisfaction.

Key Moments:

• Introduction to People First Concept [00:00:44]: Three and Jackie Carpenter are introduced as club leaders and coauthors of "People First: The Five Steps to Pure Human Connection and a Thriving Organization."
• Employee-Centric Approach [03:56]: Three Carpenter emphasizes the importance of an employee-centric approach as the foundation for great member success in clubs.
• Credibility in Employee Branding [11:04]: Jackie Carpenter explains the concept of credibility as why someone should work at your organization, emphasizing the importance of consistent employee branding.
• Candor in Hiring Process [15:42]: The Carpenters discuss the importance of candor in the hiring process, describing it as a transparent, authentic, and genuine conversation rather than an interrogation.
• Cultivation of New Employees [21:57]: Jackie Carpenter explains the importance of nurturing new employees instead of the old "sink or swim" mentality, emphasizing support and reducing anxiety.
• Commitment and Team-First Mentality [26:30]: Three Carpenter discusses how to foster a team-first mentality among employees, drawing parallels to successful sports teams and emphasizing collaboration.
• Empowering Employees to Take Ownership [28:37]: The Carpenters explain the concept of "fluidity" in roles and the importance of empowering employees to take ownership beyond their job descriptions.
• Formulas for Employee Engagement [31:18]: The podcast discusses three formulas for building employee commitment: Confidence + Comfort = Contribution, Devotion + Daring = Determination, and Energized + Encouragement = Empowerment.
• The Importance of Caring [35:27]: Jackie Carpenter breaks down the concept of "love" in business using the acronym LOVE (Loyalty, Ownership, Value, Excellence) and emphasizes the importance of focusing on how employees feel.
• Adapting to Modern Workforce Expectations [39:15]: The Carpenters stress that a people-first mindset is now an expectation of the modern workforce, not just a competitive advantage, and suggest ways for clubs to adapt, including hiring culture-focused staff if needed.

Ed Heil [00:00:00] You're listening to Crushing Club Marketing, a podcast for progressive club leaders ready to increase their club's revenue. Time for Change begins right now.

Ed Heil [00:00:13] Creating a high performing team in any business doesn't happen by accident. It begins with strong leadership at the top and runs through an entire organization of four clubs through the membership. We know great culture when we see it, but building outstanding culture isn't easy. In this episode, you'll hear from Three and Jackie Carpenter, club leaders and coauthors of the book "People First: The Five Steps to Pure Human Connection and a Thriving Organization.".

Ed Heil [00:00:44] Thanks for listening. You know, bad culture when you see it and you also know amazing club culture when you see it. It's those clubs that they kind of seem like they're okay, but you're not really sure, those are the ones you got to wonder about. You can pick up on good and bad culture, by the way the staff treats you, how they talk to you, how helpful they are. And a lot of times it's just how attentive they are. And you also get a sense for culture when you meet the members and you hear how they talk about their club. Three and Jackie Carpenter have spent their entire careers in the private club industry. And in a business where customer service is expected to be at the highest level. They have created dynamic culture by building connected teams everywhere they have gone. If you know the Carpenter's or spent time with them, you know they are enthusiastic. They are focused and really positive. People who are passionate about helping people, especially their teams. They are so committed to helping people, they wrote a book called "People First." I talked to this dynamic duo recently to talk about their book in the Five Steps to Pure Human Connection and a Thriving organization. Jackie and Three, thanks so much for joining us today.

Jackie Carpenter [00:02:00] Hi Ed, thanks.

Three Carpenter [00:02:01] And we're glad to be here. Very.

Ed Heil [00:02:04] It's great catching up. You know, and just in full transparency for for you who's listening. I've known Jackie, and Three, I think we may have met at a CMAA or something in passing at a conference. But Jackie and I have known each other, you know, just in passing as well for several years. And just learning more about your work in leadership has been really, really exciting and really interesting.

Jackie Carpenter [00:02:31] Thank you. Yeah, it's been fun.

Three Carpenter [00:02:33] Gosh, we've enjoyed it very much. And you know, our involvement with CMAA over the years, we've met so many great people that have had such a huge influence on our lives.

Ed Heil [00:02:41] Yeah, that's terrific. Well, let's start let's talk about the book a little bit. What inspired you to write the book People First?

Three Carpenter [00:02:49] Well, thanks for asking. You know, Jackie and I had spent a lot of years working in operations of clubs. I still do. And throughout that process, I think we sort of maybe took for granted a little bit internally that the things that we were doing, everybody was doing. And as we would talk to other industry leaders and we talked to people that worked at other places, we were finding out that some of the things we were doing were relatively unique. And my primary focus, and this is what Jackie kind of started maybe moving the book towards was this idea that we believed to have great member success. The foundational approach had to be having an employee culture and having an employee centric belief in everything we did. You build the foundation with the employees and then those other things like financial health or member engagement, all those things come from that foundation. Clubs notoriously believe we're only care about member experience. It's all about the members. That is true. Ultimately that that is the byproduct however of having great employee culture.

Jackie Carpenter [00:03:56] Yeah. I think one thing that a lot of clubs discovered, especially during the Covid years, was that it doesn't matter how great your facilities are if you don't have employees to operate the club or to run those facilities, it can't be a great member experience. And so we really wanted to create, to write this book, to sort of create a model for others to follow on what they could do to really create a positive employee experience, a positive employee culture, and ultimately then a thriving organization.

Three Carpenter [00:04:28] You had said all through the writing, though I think it was really interesting. Lots of people write books to identify what's wrong.

Jackie Carpenter [00:04:35] Yeah.

Three Carpenter [00:04:35] You know, this is it. This is the problem. This is it. And the reality is.

Jackie Carpenter [00:04:40] Yes. So you need to change this. You need to change this. You need to change this. Right. But then you get done reading the book and you're like, Wow, I need to change this. What do I do?

Ed Heil [00:04:48] Right, Right.

Jackie Carpenter [00:04:49] It took us a long time to really delve into this process because we wanted you to be able to read the book and go, I know where to start, or I have some ideas to go and implement, or I can follow this roadmap to create change in my organization.

Ed Heil [00:05:04] Yeah, that's it's an interesting point because you've got so many anecdotes and examples and case studies that you point to throughout the book that as you're reading it, you realize like, wow, this I mean, you know, let's face it, for a lot of people, you know, caring about your employees seems really kind of fluffy. Like, yeah, that's what I got to do. I got to care more. But it's like, the answer is yes. And when you look at how some of you know, world class businesses operate, that is what they do. So what let me ask you this. In that spirit, why is it what have you seen in the club industry that makes it really important for club leaders to to read? I mean, is there it seems to me like a lot of other industries where there's, you know, leadership challenges or understanding of what healthy culture looks like. But is there something that you've noticed about the club industry that makes us even more relevant?

Three Carpenter [00:05:59] Yeah, club leaders are too busy for me as well, right? Every one of us are going a million different directions, seven days a week, you know, 18 hour days. Sometimes all those things happen. And then you say, Well, yeah, but look, you've got to focus first on this. And everyone says, Wait a minute, I don't know that I have time. We will tell you it has to be the number one priority. All those other things have to come second. And none of us think that way. And this whole book was intended to be a reminder of prioritizing the employee first kind of message. Those other things will come.

Jackie Carpenter [00:06:35] Yeah, it's really an investment at you know, if you start with the employees, you're ultimately making your life easier down the road. But but it's an investment first and foremost.

Ed Heil [00:06:45] Is this is some of that though some of the challenge with that because so many people that are club leaders or say, general managers. Right. They rise up on the food and bev side, they come up on the golf side and they're very. That work can be very tactical. It's like I've got to execute. And they fill their days with executing tasks rather than saying, take a step back and say, Hang on. I don't have to execute, I just have to help people see a greater vision or, as you know, the MVP's and really make some of that stuff very clear. But is that part of it as well, or how does that play into, you know, the fact that everyone is really, really busy?

Three Carpenter [00:07:23] Well, I think you're 100% correct. Each one of us just digs too much into tasks. It happens to me occasionally as well. I actually try to spend time each day making sure I'm getting out and doing the employee touch stuff, doing the things where they see me, talk to me. We get lots of interaction. You know, you had made the comment about caring. That piece, it carries so much weight because it's such a simple concept. It seems so remedial. But the reality of it is when the employees realize it, you as an as a leader, really genuinely care about everything in their lives, not just their time at work, but everything. Then they work harder. They care more themselves, more loyal. It's that idea that, you know, they they that lead by example show people the care and everyone else follows it like that.

Jackie Carpenter [00:08:10] So that like the people first mentality. Right. And is really where you recognize that it's your people are one of your biggest assets. They're not a tool used to create a member experience, but rather they are an asset that needs to be invested in and cared for and nurtured and developed. And so when you start operating with a people first mindset and using that to make all of your decisions or to kind of lead the way in the way that you lead your club, there are a realm of, you know, trickle down effects and ramifications of that that really, truly benefit the culture and frankly, the overall health of the organization.

Three Carpenter [00:08:53] Years ago, someone might have looked at a club and like, my gosh, that club is so great. And they think of it like, because the golf course is so good.

Jackie Carpenter [00:09:01] The facilities are amazing.

Three Carpenter [00:09:03] The reality is the clubs that are wildly successful. Stop. Don't worry about that. Go dig in and go look at what's going on in their employee culture.

Jackie Carpenter [00:09:12] It's about the people.

Three Carpenter [00:09:13] We'll guarantee that is their strongest component.

Jackie Carpenter [00:09:17] Fun fact we almost called the book. It's about the people.

Three Carpenter [00:09:19] But yeah, People First, won.

Ed Heil [00:09:22] It's concise. It's not, you know, So let's I love to just dive into and we're not going to we're not going to dissect the book. So if you're listening, think, my gosh, you're going to dissect this whole thing. For us to be able to talk through the five C's that in just I've mentioned, credibility, candor, cultivation, commitment and care. And to start with the fact that I think it's important that for the listener to recognize and they may not feel this way, but just by my perspective, I'm anxious to hear yours as well. You have to believe this stuff. It's not enough to say, yeah, we care about our team. You've got to you've got to live it. You've got to really believe in not just like now I got to say this thing because I know that that matters, but it's because people smell B.S. a million miles away. And maybe that's a good, you know, a as good a point to start as as any with credibility. And let's talk about credibility and what that means in, you know, in the people first context.

Jackie Carpenter [00:10:22] Yeah, absolutely. So credibility is really why someone should work at your organization. It is who you are as an employer. It is your message to the outside world. And clubs are really great at why someone should join their club. They spend a lot of time and effort, you know, communicating that and prioritizing why a member should join their club and kind of historically haven't been fabulous at why someone should want to work at their club. And that is a that's what we call credibility today. It is your message to the outside world as to why somebody should want to come and work for you and what is.

Three Carpenter [00:11:04] Your employee brand?

Jackie Carpenter [00:11:05] Yeah, Yeah. And it has to be consistent. It has to be true and it has to be you have to be an employer that your employees can trust. And just like you said, you know, people can smell it. You can't tell someone, we're a great place to work, we're a great place to work. And then they show up and it's awful.

Ed Heil [00:11:21] Right, Right.

Three Carpenter [00:11:22] Years ago, Jack and I worked together at a club in Texas. And one of things I loved watching her do when she was helping us build that culture from the beginning, she would bring in a new employee as opposed to saying, my gosh, we're so great. And all these things that at that moment were not actually true. She would say, Listen, we're hiring you because we want you to come here and help us because right now we're here. We're going to be here. And as we go through the process, you're going to help make us better. And the reality of aspirational thinking and aspirational leadership, which is exactly what that was. Those people wanted to be part of the rebuild, the rebirth of what it would be our culture. Yeah.

Ed Heil [00:12:03] Right. And I was just going to say, and that might be that one of the most difficult first steps to take because you're laying that down and you better have a plan for how you're going to execute that. I mean, if you're the new sheriff in town, that's one thing. You sort of have this clean slate. But if you're listening, you think, gosh, I've got a culture issue and if you make this decision, boy, you better be ready to back it up right now.

Jackie Carpenter [00:12:27] Yeah. And it really starts. I mean, we are all about making things easy for people because we get again, club leaders are busy. But it starts with what do current employees say about you? Why do they like working there? What don't they like about working there? You know, if people are showing up for orientation and they're never coming back again, it's probably a red flag. Or if you're hiring people, you know, on the spot and then they go, yeah, again, a red flag. So there are some things there, you know, to really dig into and take a look at as to what your employees say about you. And that can be really insightful. It can be terrifying to to some people, but it's a question worth asking because they are the people you know. Again, it all starts with them.

Ed Heil [00:13:13] Yeah. You talk about in the book, you know, in the credibility chapter about mission, vision and purpose. Why is it so important that that is clear to everyone in the organization? I would imagine first and then. But what's what's you help the listener understand why that's important.

Jackie Carpenter [00:13:35] To people today. Purpose matters more than ever. It's not about a paycheck. It's not about necessarily even a title anymore. I mean, that used to be pay and title used to be the things that workers were seeking. And today it's much more about people knowing what they do matters and having a bigger purpose and a better mission. And I think clarifying the mission and the values and this is kind of what we reference in the book is people want clarity and they want to know what that is. It's I don't know if you've ever worked for someone where or in a club, they're kind of notorious for this, too, is when one manager says something, right? And then another manager says something totally different. And then a board member tells you something totally different and you're like, Well, what am I supposed to do? I just got three directives in an hour, right? So that clarity, that communication helps. What were you going to ask? Well, I.

Three Carpenter [00:14:26] Was just going to say, too, you know, sometimes we also, as employees of a club in this example, we come in and think our job is to, you know, serve a hamburger. Yeah, whatever your, like, basic task might be. The reality is that isn't anything to do with that. And through the MVP process, we think that paints the bigger picture, that what you're really creating is an employee and member culture. I mean, that's what every employee is responsible for. By the way, here's some tasks you do while we try to work for these bigger things. People want to be part of the bigger part of it, so it gets pretty mundane to imagine. I'm just here on the floor. Just sweep the floor. I mean, that's exactly right.

Ed Heil [00:15:06] Yeah. Helping people understand why their work matters is just is so, so important. And it's not like to your point earlier, Three, it's everyone's busy and it's like, wait, I have to tell him why this matters is like, yeah, "Ed's not very bright. He needs help." No, I'm just kidding. So that wasn't very nice. So candor, let's talk a little bit about candor, because that is one of those Well, in communications, candor can be very helpful and clear communication or on alignment. But within the book of People First. Talk to me a little bit about what candor means.

Jackie Carpenter [00:15:42] Yeah. So candor is what we reference as when you're hiring an employee, right? And it's really the hiring process. So we say that when you're hiring someone, it needs to be a transparent, authentic, genuine conversation. It's not an interrogation. I don't know if you've ever been interrogated in a job interview before, Ed, but it's not something that's very comfortable or very rewarding as an employee. And especially today when it is a probably the most brutal job market out there. I mean, to try and get employees today, you have to be at the top of your game because if not, that person's probably has several other job offers on the table. Right. So. Or are being pursued by other employers. And so the candid process is really about telling people what it's like to work at your organization, why they should want to work at your organization. And it's really connecting with them. And I think that's a piece that so often it becomes an interrogation where maybe the hiring managers like Ed, why are you good enough to work here instead of, Hey, tell me about yourself. What do you like doing? And and maybe let's see if if there's, you know, ways that. We can align right. And your mitt, your values and our values. Let's see if they go together.

Three Carpenter [00:17:01] Well, and it's about being authentic and vulnerable at the same time. And let's be honest, in the club space, it's all about image and, you know, all buttoned up and that whole thing. But, you know, I got to tell you, the reality is for the great leaders in our industry that are vulnerable and authentic, I mean, especially in the interview process, because working for an institution doesn't create loyalty. Loyalty comes from the premise that you are making a connection with this potential interviewee. They meet you and they think, Wow, he was really honest. He was really open, like very vulnerable, told us about the goods in the ads, like those kind of things. People want to work for that, right?

Jackie Carpenter [00:17:42] Right. It's that connecting piece that it comes back to you. It's more about working for a leader or working for a person who genuinely cares, versus we need somebody who can come in here tomorrow. And these are this is what we need from you. And there's not a lot of what what do you want from us? Right.

Three Carpenter [00:17:59] Well, we have preached for a long time at our clubs. "Loyalty is to one another." It's not "loyalty is to blank club". And I'm sorry, that's just a harsh fact.

Jackie Carpenter [00:18:10] It's about the people.

Three Carpenter [00:18:11] It is about those people. And and when you're in the interview process, keeping that in your mind all the time when we start interviews, I'm telling you it is very low key and we open with something like, Hey, we're not doing the kind of normal interview thing. We are.

Jackie Carpenter [00:18:26] Having a conversation.

Three Carpenter [00:18:27] Having a conversation.

Ed Heil [00:18:29] And isn't that really the result of the type of culture that you have in your club? Right. Because if you are able to be vulnerable and authentic in an interview, you're telling that person, this is how we operate as well. Isn't that right? I mean, and then you and I thought there's an interesting anecdote in the book as well about the young man who was interviewing for the job but wasn't the right person. And and that person shared something that was very personal that I think is his parent passing away. That changed the the whole perspective of that of that person and how in it's hard to get someone you're interviewing to be that open about something that's very intimate and very personal. But what it says about them when they're able to is huge.

Jackie Carpenter [00:19:22] Absolutely. Yeah. And I think a lot of times interviewers get really hung up on the resumé or where they've worked in the past, and we're guilty of that, too. We've been there and done that. But what we have found is when you focus more on the person and why they want to work there and what they're looking for, and you really cater, you know, that interview to getting to know that person, it's a much better indicator of whether they're going to fit in your club culture or not, or they're going to be a good fit for your team versus, Hey, have you ever waited tables before or do you know all the drinks to bartend? Like, we can teach people those skills, but we can't teach you to be engaging and outgoing and happy. Can't do that, right?

Three Carpenter [00:20:03] Yeah. Well, and sometimes just finding whatever their triggers are to get them to relax. Yeah. We tell a different story in the book where we talk a lot about somebody who is an unbelievably successful GM today in our industry who was bombing and an intern interview like no one one's ever seen. And. As I watched it happen and I really started to feel really bad for this young man. I was digging into his resume and, you know, had taken a second and started to realize that knowing what his resume said, there had to be a belief in leadership based on the military and Indiana basketball. And when I bridge the question about those things, his posture changed, his body changed and...

Jackie Carpenter [00:20:48] Found the thing that he was passionate about. Right. Able to draw that out versus just asking questions because he was saying what he thought we wanted to hear. Right. So where you change the game. And that's really what candor is about.

Three Carpenter [00:21:01] Sometimes it's as silly as asking about what movies people like or songs or books, because all of a sudden they have to think about themselves personally, not at work. And when they relate that, their whole demeanor changes. And I think that's really important.

Jackie Carpenter [00:21:14] And that's something I think, again, Ed, club leaders really get hung up on is we're hiring a new, you know, golf pro. Where did they work before? What is their background, What's all their credentials, Not necessarily who they are as a person. And does this really fit who we want at our club, running our golf programing and, you know, teaching our children and those kinds of things? That's where that mindset shift really comes into play.

Ed Heil [00:21:38] Yeah, terrific. I love it. Let's talk about cultivation. And I think there is a line that says something like, just once you've hired them, it doesn't stop there. Tell, tell, tell us more. What do you know when you think about cultivating those those people, what does that look like on a day to day basis and why is it so important?

Jackie Carpenter [00:21:57] Yeah. So [00:21:58]I usually show this really awesome picture of a girl pushing a guy into the swimming pool and he's like, falling and she's laughing because that's what cultivation feels like a lot of times or has been in, you know, historically, that's the way that it feels is you're kind of feeding someone to the wolves like it's a sink or swim period, where you got to weed out the weak ones. Hey, you know what? If you if you can't figure it out and you can't get it here, then you shouldn't be working here. And we will tell you today that is the wrong approach. Okay? You are scaring people away. You are drowning people and they're not coming back because today it is all about a very nurturing and supportive period. Because the thing people forget is that when you're new, you feel stupid. And I don't know about you, but we have yet to come across anybody who loves to feel stupid. [46.2s] And so if you can bring in a new person and nurturing and really caring for them and help get them up to speed by answering their questions and eliminating those yucky feelings of anxiety and stress and uncomfortableness, you can get them over that quickly. You're going to have a much better success rate at them coming back the next day and them really taking on the job and the role.

Three Carpenter [00:23:13] Well, I think if you think about gardens or flowers or you talk about this a great deal, but that old cliche of you get out of it what you put into it. So you take time and you take care of it and you grow.

Jackie Carpenter [00:23:24] Plant the seed and you continue to nurture them.

Three Carpenter [00:23:27] Yeah, all of that is really, really true in this phase because so frequently you've hired him and you just let him go. And Jack is exactly right. That culture is a decade ago.

Jackie Carpenter [00:23:39] Well, and it's hard again, we've said club leaders are busy. Right. So we make a lot of assumptions. Hey, I noticed, you know, on your resume, you've done this before, so here you go. Here's the dining room. You know, have at it. Holler if you have any questions. And that doesn't work. You know, that really doesn't work today because, again, people are uncomfortable. And I don't know if you know this. We've heard this several times and seen it in our research that younger generations of workers today, this is terrifying, feel more comfortable ghosting. You just not showing up, not telling you they quit then telling their leader or their boss that they don't understand something or they don't feel confident or telling them that they have a question about something. It's easier for them just to not show up again.

Three Carpenter [00:24:23] Think about that. The power of that is absolutely shocking.

Jackie Carpenter [00:24:27] During that cultivation phase, if we're not meeting with people on a daily basis and saying, Hey, what can I help you with, what questions do you have here? Let me show you this again. I know. Let me give you another tour of the club. I know it's a big facility. I don't want you to be overwhelmed. What are those things of anxiety and stress and those kinds of things? Because those are the feelings that make people not come back again.

Ed Heil [00:24:48] Right. You know, it's funny you said that. Why we wanted to come back. That's always a good thing. We'll have a little joke that someone comes back for day two. It's like, all right, you came back. That's. Exactly. But the you said, you know how no one likes to feel stupid. Imagine, like the value when you make people feel really smart. Yeah. And to the point of what you're saying about cultivation and even going back to credibility, it's like, you know, you hire someone think, you know, under this pretense that you're all these things and then they get it's like, my gosh, they're not like that at all. Right? And I mean, you've probably seen these things too, where sometimes you make a hire where boy, you're not really sure if they're the right person. And in fact, you're starting to you're pretty convinced they're not. But when you take that time to water that flower, when you take that time to nurture and figure out what's getting in the way, how they can just really take off. And, you know, that's it's such a great win when that happens as well. Let's talk about commitment in this. I mean, I love this the section because there are just so many pieces to it. But and maybe if we could start with one of the thoughts that really I think is so hard for people. How do you get people to think of the team first instead of themselves? Like, I got to take care of myself before I think of like, you know, you said you said earlier, I mean, there's this idea of being accountable not to the club, but to your coworkers and the team that you're used to. So how do you how do you do that and how does that fit in with commitment? And, you know, is. You know, as a part of this this whole thinking.

Three Carpenter [00:26:30] Well, just quick on how you get everyone to kind of believe the power of that. I think that we do lots and lots of education trying to tell people about and remind people the feelings they've had when they've actually been part of, as an example, a successful sports team and how that sort of builds camaraderie and how they feel sort of doing it together with that kind of person standing next to them. You know, you think back, we use the restaurant part of the club world. When you think back to the idea that we were in competition for gratuities and we were in competition, you know, for that table, because that one tips better than that one. And all those things that maybe happened a couple of decades ago today. You know, you think about it, we're really working together. Let me help you be great. And I think we try to create a culture by which people are really believing they're not in it alone. Not only do we believe that sort of the traditional hierarchy, you know, of a dictatorial leadership style is really inverse, where we as the the upper leaders are really on the bottom supporting you up and then all your teammates are there trying to help make you successful. The power of it is quite remarkable.

Jackie Carpenter [00:27:36] Yeah. And, you know, it's helping people understand that members don't join the golf course or they don't join the tennis department. They join the club. And so we're only as strong as our weakest link, right? If 90% of the club is awesome, but the golf course sucks, then guess what? That is impacting our experience negatively. And so I think helping employees see how they're really tied to everybody and if they're great, that's awesome. But if the person next to them sucks, it's making them look bad. So it is that kind of link really there. And the kind of the biggest thing too, with commitment is it's all about getting employees to own it and to take ownership of their roles and really seeing what they do every day and really to own it. So, you know, we go we use this example in the book to it about Disney, right? And it's everyone's job to keep the park clean. It's what we call fluidity. It's where there is. Yes, you have a job. You know.

Three Carpenter [00:28:37] These are the tasks that you own for sure.

Jackie Carpenter [00:28:40] You have a job description, but there's a lot of other stuff there that goes on where if you see something dirty lying on the floor, you pick it up. If there's a member walking in and they need the door open, you open the door, Right? It's those kinds of things that go well beyond the job description. And so with commitment, it's about, you know, really investing in those people and helping them see that you want them to take ownership of their role. And I think that sometimes is challenging in the club space because we get a lot of board members or leaders who are maybe micromanaging. We're nit picking where, you know, digging in. We're trying to control things where we're not allowing our leaders to lead.

Three Carpenter [00:29:18] Well, no, just back to the idea of a dictatorial leadership style. When you start to have a collaborative leadership style and instead of subservience, which in in the club industry was rampant for, I'm sure, decades, where it was so much based on this idea that you're just there to do whatever every member, you do.

Jackie Carpenter [00:29:36] What you're told. Right. Don't think you just do what we tell you to do.

Three Carpenter [00:29:40] We believe strongly that what you're really trying to do instead is at the lowest levels. It does make a difference all the way up through the organization. You're creating a leadership culture so that these folks are thinking and solving problems and having fun, really making a difference.

Jackie Carpenter [00:29:53] Right. And one of the things that has blown our mind and over the course since the book came out, when we talk about ownership, is how many people tell us they just needed permission to own it. They needed permission from their boss, that, hey, you know what, Ed, you're doing a great job. I believe in you. I want you to own it. Like take it on. I don't want to be babysitting you. I don't want to feel like I've got to be checking in on you all the time. I want you to take it on. I want you to own it and then let me know what I can do to support you or what questions you have because I want to help you win. And that's a conversation that so many times people assume they don't need to have. They just expect you to own it. But that person needs that confidence and that, you know, encouragement really to to take that on.

Ed Heil [00:30:39] Absolutely. And, you know, the way we always stick to it and it's okay if you make a mistake and if you do have that leeway. Right. And one of my favorite sayings is don't deprive someone the opportunity to make a mistake. Yeah. Because they learn so much. Right.

Jackie Carpenter [00:30:53] And it really comes down to how do people respond when a mistake happens, too. Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Ed Heil [00:31:00] Absolutely. Let's break that down just a little bit more. I'm not a math guy, but plus, plus signs and equal signs with words. I actually think I can do that. So maybe just some quick thoughts around each one. And this is sort of building that commitment. Confidence plus comfort equals contribution. What does that mean?

Jackie Carpenter [00:31:18] Well, people really want to contribute, but they're not going to contribute if they're not confident or comfortable to do that. Right. And again, we literally just made. The case is if they're not confident and comfortable enough to try or to put themselves out there or to take ownership of it, guess what? They're not going to do that. They're not going to contribute at their best. But when a club is thriving is really when everybody's contributing their best, right, they're giving their all and contributing. So we have to instill those things in people.

Ed Heil [00:31:47] All right. Devotion plus daring equals determination.

Jackie Carpenter [00:31:50] Yeah. So a little bit of challenge is good. And, you know, we want to spark people's passion and help them see beyond just sweeping the floor. Right.

Three Carpenter [00:32:01] We love creating new ways, thinking outside the box, like all those things all take a little courage, a little bit of daring, right? So I think that's a big piece of it.

Jackie Carpenter [00:32:09] Yeah, absolutely.

Three Carpenter [00:32:10] And when they care about it enough, I mean, that devotion piece and then they go take that little bit of a risk. And you really see those big, big, big results.

Ed Heil [00:32:19] Yeah, Interesting. You put those two together when they care enough that they say, what if we tried this? Right. Energized. Plus, encouragement equals empowerment.

Jackie Carpenter [00:32:31] Yeah. And again, kind of comes back to giving people permission, right? Energizing people and encouraging them. That is where we see, you know, people succeed. And I think so often we say this a lot is we assume people are getting encouraged outside of their, you know, in their daily lives or not at work. We make assumptions about that. And what if we stop and think about at work is really probably the the place people are encouraged the most. And so what an opportunity to, you know, really energize people, get them excited about it and really empower them to to own it. Right. Empower them to take it on and to show us, you know, give us their best.

Three Carpenter [00:33:13] Yeah. Well, I think that energy thing, you know, you talk a lot about being an energy giver as opposed to an energy sucker. And we think about it from a leadership perspective, being an energy giver, that is that energized thing. Yeah. No matter how I feel as a leader, I do my very, very, very best to always be in a very high energy sort of mode because I believe that's a little bit contagious

Jackie Carpenter [00:33:36] Positive.

Three Carpenter [00:33:36] In changes. And I think that's really what energize. I'm trying to energize others. Right?

Jackie Carpenter [00:33:41] Yeah.

Ed Heil [00:33:42] Interesting. Foss Swim Schools. Local based swim school. And they have this thing when they hire new swim instructors, they say they look for the light bulb. Can they be a light bulb for their kids? So when some kid comes to the pool, "Oh Three is here today! High Five!" And that's you know, the way I always think about that is just in people's light. Do they have a light bulb? Do they light up, you know, putting them all together, contribution plus determination plus empowerment, which is the outcome of the others, equals bold achievement. What is that like? Help Help put some context around that.

Jackie Carpenter [00:34:18] Yeah. Bold achievement is really what, you know, another name for thriving. I mean, ultimately, it's where everybody is doing their best. They're caring about it. They're contributing at a high level. You know, when people are disengaged, Ed, you know, there's a gazillion studies about how that negatively impacts an organization when people are disengaged or they're just clicking, the mouse is just working, right. They're punching a clock. Right. And when we can truly get people who are engaged and they're caring about it and they're looking for solutions and they're asking questions that aren't being asked yet and they're inventing and creating. Well, that's the secret sauce right there. That's where the magic happens. But it all those other formulas. Right. Kind of have to be in play because they all add up and they're all sort of stair steps or building blocks to get to that result.

Ed Heil [00:35:12] Yeah. Got it. Let's let's bring this home with with kind of how we started, which is care and caring. And one of my it, one of my favorite sayings is that people don't care about what you know until they know you care. Right. It's just a huge thing.

Jackie Carpenter [00:35:27] Yeah. And caring is really what it is. But it's evident in all the other steps. The four steps prior is you have to show that you genuinely care about your employees, that you are willing to invest in them. It comes down to really this and this might freak some people out, but it comes down to really loving your employees. And we know love in business freaks people out. It's you know, we run from it because we've been trained, you know, by our four years that like, no love in business. Right.

Ed Heil [00:35:57] Right. Exactly.

Jackie Carpenter [00:35:58] But really, think about it this way. Love is loyalty, ownership, value and excellence. And it comes down to we show that we're loyal to them and we're going to help them succeed so that they can be loyal to us. It's ownership that we want to give them permission to own it and help them have the resources and everything they need so they can own it and feel comfortable in their jobs so that they can own their jobs. And then value is really about where you're seeing their value as a human being and a contributor in our workforce so that they can produce value. And then the E comes down to excellence, and it's where we give them an employee experience that is excellent so they can produce excellence for our members. And what we haven't talked about yet is, Ed. What care really is and what people first really is, is a focus on how our employees feel. And that's a warm and fuzzy, touchy feely thing. We get it. But when we are paying attention to how we're making our employees feel, whether that is overwhelmed, frustrated, micromanaged, or whether that's empowered and energized and comfortable and confident, those are the things we have to be noticing. Because when people don't feel good at work, guess what? They're not contributing. They're not engaged. And they may or may not come back the next day. That's the reality of the world we're living in right now.

Ed Heil [00:37:26] Yeah. It's so interesting, you know? And who doesn't like it when someone asks, How are you doing? Yeah. You know, and I do.

Jackie Carpenter [00:37:34] What can I do to help you and.

Ed Heil [00:37:35] Right.

Jackie Carpenter [00:37:36] The day.

Ed Heil [00:37:37] And, you know, we talk about this sometimes a storyteller when someone says, I'm doing all right, you know what prevents you from saying just all right?

Jackie Carpenter [00:37:45] Yeah.

Ed Heil [00:37:45] You know, like, how do I get you from being all right to, like, amazing, right? And maybe you can. Maybe you can't put that level of of concern and interest in someone goes such a long way.

Jackie Carpenter [00:37:57] Absolutely.

Ed Heil [00:37:58] Yeah. So, I mean, you just said this is a touchy feely stuff. We don't like talking about love and business, that's for sure. Right. Which is so true. I mean, and it doesn't. It doesn't really make sense to me. But how do you what do you recommend? What do you recommend for club leaders that hear this? And go, "Yeah. I can't do that at my club. I'm not you know, we're not really that's not the type of team we are. It's not the type of club we are." How do you how do you help people take that first step? What is the what is the hardest. How do you get them to push through that?

Three Carpenter [00:38:36] Well, a couple of quick things. One, we think that, you know, since Covid, Jackie and I will tell you that for, you know, 20 years prior, this was always a competitive advantage that the clubs that we worked at, we were having success with sort of this modeling. Right. And and it was it was kind of winning on the other side of that, being honest. Now, after Covid and the pandemic, it's no longer a competitive advantage. It's an absolute must for everybody. So even those clubs are like, gosh, you know, we're more prim and proper than that or, you know, whatever it is. The reality is today you've got to build this strong foundation of culture, you know, before you can get the other things, because.

Jackie Carpenter [00:39:15] It's an expectation of the workforce today. They expect that the people first mindset is going to be in play.

Three Carpenter [00:39:22] And if not, they're going to leave.

Jackie Carpenter [00:39:23] They're not going to stick around.

Ed Heil [00:39:25] That's right. Right. Yeah.

Three Carpenter [00:39:27] So go ahead.

Ed Heil [00:39:29] No, you go.

Three Carpenter [00:39:30] So just the idea, however, that maybe you as the main leader are not that touchy feely person. That's okay. Go hire somebody who is. Very frankly, make sure you have that sort of culture keeper. It doesn't have to be the general manager. Just as a note. Yeah.

Ed Heil [00:39:50] That's so big. I mean, even just for a general manager to know that I. I recognize this being really important. It's not who I am. But I get that I have. You know, I love that. And so it's so important to. Gosh, is going to mention one other thing around the culture stuff and but it's it's escaped me.

Jackie Carpenter [00:40:09] Or if it comes back just say so I have a recommendation to add here. Here's what I would say. If a club is struggling with this or that's not who we are or, you know, that's the belief. It's really small things make a big difference. And so some simple changes, some little adjustments. It could maybe simply start with an employee survey. Ask your employees what do they want? What how do they feel about working at the club? What do they wish they could change? What is it that could be very insightful and not that you're going to be able to implement every single thing or change every single thing on that list. But that is a very insightful piece of information that club leaders can look at and then make the decision, Hey, do we need to make some changes? Because our employees say, hey, it sucks working here.

Ed Heil [00:41:03] Right, Right, right.

Jackie Carpenter [00:41:04] Or we don't like it here. I'm only here because it's a paycheck and I worked here for ten years or I'm hoping to get my bonus or whatever it might be, but that that can be a very telling resource. If club managers or board members are brave enough to ask those questions.

Ed Heil [00:41:20] Right. And it is one of those things where be ready to do something. Because there's the other thing that we know too, is that ask people what they think and then don't do anything about. It is it's really tough to remember what I was going to mention about the hiring and caring about your team and having the right culture, which is that, you know, we talk about this quite a bit. You know in some of my my talks is just that how the younger generation wants experiences and part of the experience is having a staff that really cares about you. And you talk about this in the book. If you don't have the right people, they're not going to provide the right experience for your members. And in this time where younger, this younger generations got a lot of options and private clubs might not be their thing. You're not It's just it's yes, it's about attracting the right people, but it's also about creating the right culture for your employees so that your club can grow and be and be healthy as well. So, so many parts that are so valuable. Well, it's a big mountain to climb in for some people. But the book is terrific and so, so needed in not just in the club space, but in all businesses especially, I think. Well, you see it in all sizes. But so often small, medium sized businesses that are really struggling with how to create the right culture. Boy, I know I've had my challenges and this is great information. Thanks so much for your time today.

Jackie Carpenter [00:42:48] Thanks, Ed, We appreciate it.

Three Carpenter [00:42:50] Well, thanks for all you're doing for the industry and we really appreciate being on today. Thank you so much.

Ed Heil [00:42:57] Thank you for listening. If you find this podcast helpful, be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep crushing your club marketing.