You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I am giving you another sneak peek inside my Peaceful Parenting Membership!

Listen in as I interview Rachel Simmons as part of our membership’s monthly theme of “Friendship Troubles”. Rachel is an expert on relational aggression, AKA mean girls. We discuss how to intervene in this behaviour when kids are young, how to prevent our child from doing this, and how we can support our children when they’re experiencing it.

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We talk about:

* 6:27 What is relational aggression?

* 8:50 Both boys and girls engage in this type of aggression

* 10:45 How do we intervene with young kids

* 14:00 How do we teach our kids to communicate more effectively

* 22:30 How to help our children who are dealing with relational aggression

* 33:50 Can you reach out to the aggressive child’s parents?

* 38:00 How to reach out to the school

* 47:30 How to help our kids make new friends after relational aggression

Resources mentioned in this episode:

* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player

* The Peaceful Parenting Membership

* Rachel’s website

xx Sarah and Corey

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Rachel interview transcript

Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s episode is another sneak peek inside my membership, where I interviewed Rachel Simmons — an expert on relational aggression, AKA “mean girls.” She wrote a book called Odd Girl Out, which is all about the topic of relational aggression and how we can support our children when they’re experiencing it — and what to do if our child is actually doing that to other people.

If you don’t know what relational aggression is, don’t worry — listen up, because she goes into the definition of it. This was a great conversation. My members had questions, I had questions, and in the end, we all agreed it was a very helpful discussion. I think you’ll find it helpful as well — no matter how old your child is or whether or not they’ve experienced any relational aggression.

This is something we should all be aware of, and as parents, we actually have a lot of control over preventing our child from becoming someone who uses relational aggression.

As I said, this is a sneak peek inside my membership, where we have a theme every month. This month’s theme was “Friendship Troubles,” and it actually came as a request from one of our members. So we brought in Rachel to talk to us about relational aggression, which this member’s child had been struggling with.

Every month in the membership, we have a theme — I do some teaching about it, and we also bring in a guest expert for teaching and Q&A.

If you’d like to join us inside the membership, you can go to reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership to learn more and join us.

Another thing we do inside the membership is office hours. You may have heard a recent podcast that gave a sneak peek into what those are like. We do office hours twice a week where you’re welcome to drop in, ask a question, get support, or share a win — from me, Corey, and other members. It’s just a wonderful place.

Our membership is my favorite corner of the internet, and we’ve been doing it for six years. It really is a special place. I’d love for you to join us! Please let me know if you have any questions, or just head over to reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership to learn more.

And now — let’s hear from Rachel.

Hey Rachel, welcome to the podcast.

Rachel: Thank you.

Sarah: Can you just tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Rachel: Sure. Well, I’m based in Western Massachusetts, and I’m a researcher and author. Over the last eight years, I’ve also become an executive coach. I’ve always been fascinated by — and inspired by — the psychology of girls and women.

Over what’s now become a long career, I’ve worked with women and girls across the lifespan — beginning, I’d say, in elementary school, and more recently working with adult women.

I’ve always been animated by questions about how women and girls experience certain phenomena and spaces differently, and how paying attention to those experiences can contribute to their overall wellness and potential.

Sarah: Nice. And I just finished reading your book Odd Girl Out, and I could see how much research went into it. I think you mentioned you interviewed people for a few years to write that book.

Rachel: It was a long time, yeah. I was just actually reflecting on that. I came across a shoebox filled with cassette tapes — little cassette tapes of the interviews I did when I wrote that book, which came out 20 years ago.

I worked all over the United States and tried to speak to as many girls as I could.

Sarah: It’s a great book — highly recommended. We’ll put a link to it in the show notes. Thank you for writing it.

So today we invited you here because we want to talk about relational aggression. Can you give us a definition of what relational aggression is?

Rachel: Yes. Relational aggression is a psychological form of aggression — a way that people express themselves when they’re trying to get a need met or are upset about something. It usually starts as early as two or three years old, when kids become verbal, and it’s the use of relationship as a weapon.

It can start off as something like the silent treatment — “I’m going to turn away from you because I’m upset with you” — cutting someone off as a way of communicating unhappiness. That silence becomes the message.

I remember once interviewing a seventh-grade girl who told me she gave people the silent treatment — that she’d stop talking to them as a way to get what she wanted. That was really unusual, because most girls won’t come up and be like, “Yeah, here are all the ways I’m mean.”

In fact, it’s often the secrecy that makes this stuff hard to talk about. So I was like, wow, here’s a unicorn telling me she’s doing it. And I asked, “Why do you do it?” And she said, “Because with my silence, I let my friends know what’s going to happen if they don’t do what I want.”

A very powerful description of relational aggression.

So that’s the silent treatment, but it can also take more verbal forms. Like, “If you don’t give me that toy, I won’t be your friend anymore.” Or, “If you don’t play with me at recess today, then our friendship is over.”

The threat is always that I’ll take away a relationship. And it’s so powerful because — what do we want more than connection? That’s a profound human need. So it’s a very, very powerful form of aggression.

Sarah: Your book is called Odd Girl Out, and you focused on women and girls. Do you think this also happens with boys? Has it started happening more with boys? What’s your take — is it still mainly a girl thing? I mean, when I think of relational aggression, I think of “mean girls,” right?

Rachel: Yes, I think a lot of people do — and certainly did when I first started researching this book many years ago. I did too.

It’s important to remember that yes, boys definitely do this, and they do it as much as girls starting in middle school — at least according to the research I read. I haven’t read the very recent studies, so that could have changed, but back when I was doing this work, no one was writing about boys doing it.

There was almost no research, and frankly, because of my own experience — seeing boys being more direct and girls being indirect — I assumed it was just a girl thing. But it most definitely is not.

I think I and others, in many ways, did a disservice to boys by not studying them. I wish I had. It’s something that’s much more widely understood now by people out in the field doing this work.

Sarah: Yeah, interesting — because my oldest son, who’s now 24, definitely experienced a lot of relational aggression in elementary school. And my daughter did too.

And just as a side note — it’s so painful to watch your kids go through that. I want to ask you more about parents’ roles, but it’s so painful as a parent to watch your child have their friends be mean to them.

You mentioned it can start as young as two or three, and I remember reading in your book — that sort of “you can’t come to my birthday party” thing. Even little kids will say that to their parents sometimes, right? Using that relational aggression.

You said that if we don’t actively get involved, it can turn into older-kid relational aggression that never goes away. What do you suggest parents do or say when they hear this kind of thing — whether it’s to other kids on the playground, to a sibling, or even to the parents themselves?

Rachel: Yeah, with little kids — we’re talking about little, little ones — I often answer that question with a question back to the parent: What do you do when your kid hits or bites somebody?

Usually what most of us do is stop the behavior, make sure the other kid’s okay, and then turn to our own child and say, “You can’t do that. We don’t do that in our family. That’s not what we say, that’s not what we do. You have to use your words.”

And we say, “We don’t ever threaten people when we’re angry.” It’s okay to be mad — that’s really key — but it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. Certain ways of speaking are off-limits, just like certain words are off-limits.

It’s also key, though, to practice self-awareness as a parent. Because if you’re the kind of person who goes quiet when you’re upset, or withdraws as a way of expressing yourself, that’s probably where your kid’s picking it up. They’re not unaware of that.

It’s kind of like when parents tell teens, “Hey, get off your phone,” and the teen says, “You’re on your phone all the time.” Modeling is key.

Sarah: That makes a lot of sense — treating relational aggression like any other form of aggression, giving alternatives, correcting the behavior.

Rachel: Exactly — and helping them cultivate empathy. Ask, “How do you think that other person felt when you said that? How do you think it feels when someone says they won’t be your friend anymore?”

You don’t want to lose friends just because you made a mistake.

Unfortunately, so many people believe this is just “kids being kids.” When you hear that phrase, it’s almost a way of disqualifying or invalidating the behavior as aggression. We have to be really careful not to trivialize it or write it off. That’s the gateway to not taking it seriously and not holding kids accountable.

Sarah: One of the things you talk about in your book — which I thought was really great food for thought — is how this often happens with girls because girls are socialized not to express their anger and to be “nice” and “good.” So it goes underground and comes out in these covert, or even not-so-covert, forms of relational aggression.

What can we do as parents to change this? Any concrete ways to help girls express themselves or communicate more effectively so that this doesn’t happen?

Rachel: That’s a really good question. I think one approach I value — both as a parent and in my work — is taking a more integrated approach to parenting, not just saying something in the moment.

If we want kids — and we don’t even have to say “girls,” just kids — to be more emotionally expressive and authentic so they don’t resort to indirect or harmful behaviors, then they need to be raised with certain principles.

Those principles have to be voiced, reinforced, and practiced throughout daily life — not just in response to an acute moment of aggression.

Some of those principles are: It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. All feelings are welcome, but not all behaviors are. You have the right to be treated with respect and dignity by your friends, and you owe that to them as well.

And not even just your friends — everyone. You don’t have to be friends with everyone, but you do have to treat everyone with respect.

That’s key for girls, in particular, because they’re often expected to be friends with everyone, which makes them feel resentful. So another principle is: You don’t have to be friends with everyone. You can be acquaintances and still treat people respectfully.

You’re striking a balance between supporting expression — it’s good to say how you feel — and being thoughtful about how you do it.

It’s also a practice. Sometimes we’ll make mistakes or feel awkward expressing ourselves, but that’s far better than going behind someone’s back or ignoring them forever.

Sarah: Right. I’m reminded of a line we often use in peaceful parenting when one sibling is being “mean” to another verbally. We’ll say, “You can tell your sibling how you feel without attacking them,” or, “You can tell your sibling how you feel without using unkind words.”

That’s really what you’re saying — it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it.

So as I was reading your book, I realized that many of the things we teach in peaceful parenting already help kids express themselves in healthy ways — and also not put up with being treated poorly.

If you learn at home that you don’t have power or agency because your parents don’t treat you with respect, then you’re more susceptible to peers treating you poorly.

Rachel: Yeah, I think so. Parents teach us what to expect from other people. They also teach us how to respond in difficult moments.

If they normalize difficult moments and your day-to-day life includes not feeling valued or safe, you’ll import that into your relationships with others.

It can be more subtle too — if you don’t feel unconditionally valued, or if you have to fight for your parents’ attention, or you don’t feel consistent attachment, you might become vulnerable to pursuing peers who recreate that familiar but painful dynamic.

If your “happy place” becomes constantly trying to get the popular girl to win you over, that might mirror how you once tried to win your parents’ attention.

Sarah: If your child is the victim of relational aggression — what should you do? Both in terms of how to support your child and whether there’s anything you should do with other parents or the school?

Rachel: Great questions. First, how to support your child when they go through something like this — and you’re absolutely right, it can be really triggering for us as parents.

Empathy really matters. And I know some people are like, “Yeah, duh, empathy.” But in my work — and in my life as a parent — I’ve found that we’re wired to help and fix, not to empathize. That’s how humans have survived — by fixing and protecting, not empathizing.

So our instinct when we see our child in distress is to jump in and try to fix it.

Sarah: It’s called the “righting instinct,” I think.

Rachel: The righting instinct — oh! Like to put them upright again?

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: Oh, that’s helpful — I didn’t know that! Yes, the righting instinct.

So we have to override that and remember that what a child really needs is to know that what they’re going through is normal — even if it’s incredibly hard — and that their feelings are normal. They need to know they’re not alone.

Say things like, “You must feel really hurt,” or “That sounds so hard.”

Now, some kids will say, “No, I’m fine.” Not every kid will respond with, “Thanks for empathizing, Mom.” But you can still name the feeling — “If I were you, I’d feel the same way,” or, “That’s really hard.”

The feelings are scary, and kids want to know it’s okay to feel how they feel — that they’re not alone, and that it’s normal.

After that, try to override the fixing instinct as much as you can. Because unless your child is in acute distress, these are opportunities for them to develop problem-solving skills.

They will experience social aggression — that’s inevitable. If they don’t, they’re probably not connected to other people. So it’s not a question of if, it’s when.

These moments are opportunities for you to be with them and support them — but not to do it for them.

Ask, “Okay, this is going on — tell me one way you could respond. What’s something you could do?”

What we’re doing by asking that is not jumping in with, “Here’s what I’d do,” which doesn’t teach them anything. We’re giving them a chance to think.

A lot of kids will say, “I don’t know,” or get annoyed — that’s fine. You can say, “Okay, what’s one thing you could do?”

If they say, “Nothing,” you can say, “Nothing is a choice. That’s a strategy. What do you think will happen if you do nothing?”

We live in a culture that’s consistently deprived kids of opportunities to become resilient — deprived them of discomfort, and that’s cost them problem-solving ability.

I’m not saying kids should handle social aggression alone, but these moments are a chance to hold them and be with them — without doing it for them.

So those are kind of the first two steps.

Sarah: Well, I mean, I think empathize and empath—one thing that I read in your book is that sometimes parents dismiss that it’s really happening, or because of their own fears of their child. Wanting their child to fit in, they might try to encourage them to stay in the relationship or to try to fix the relationship. Maybe you could speak to that a little bit.

Rachel: Sure. Well, I think these kinds of moments can be incredibly disorienting for parents and triggering. And I use the word disorienting because we start to lose—we stop losing—the ability to differentiate between our feelings and experiences and our kids’.

So, for example, if we have a lot of emotion and a lack of resolution around what happened to us, when our kids go through it, all those feelings come right back up. And then we may start to assume that our kids are actually suffering more than they are.

Like, I’ll give you an example of a kid I met and her parent. The kid had been not treated well in middle school and she said, “I just want to sit at a different table.” And her mom was like, “But this is terrible! This is a terrible thing. We have to do something about it.” And her kid was like, “I just want to sit at a different table.”

So remaining aware of any delta between how your child is reacting and how you are is very key. And if you sense that difference, then you really need to conform to where your kid is and not insert or enforce your own emotions on them.

I also think it runs the other direction. To your point, Sarah, if you yourself fear—if you remember being really afraid of what happened when you felt alone—and you start to imagine that if your child were to make a move that would put them in more isolation, that would be bad for them because it was bad for you. Again, that’s a flag.

Anytime you find that you’re sort of flooding your parenting with the memories or the experiences that you had long before you were a parent—if you have the ability to differentiate—that’s really where you learn how to do it differently. But becoming aware of that is most important.

Sarah: That makes a lot of sense. And then I love how you’re talking about inviting problem-solving—you know, “What do you want to do?” Because often we come in with this, “Well, this is what you do. You march back in there on Monday and you say this.”

But as you said, that doesn’t allow them to develop any skills.

And, you know, where’s the spot—where’s the space—for encouraging? Because I know that my daughter, I went through this with her, with some mean girls in our community and at her school. And I just wanted to say, “Just make friends with different kids! Why do you keep trying to be friends with these same kids that are not being nice to you?”

Like, where’s the space for that? And what do you do?

And that actually is a question that one of our members sent in: what should we do, if anything, if our child still wants to be friends with the kids that haven’t been kind to them or who have been relationally aggressive?

Rachel: Yeah, it’s such a great question, and it’s one that many, many parents hold. Because it is certainly a phenomenon where, you know, you keep going back to the person who has hurt you.

And girls can be very inconsistent or all over the place—like, one day we’re really good friends, the next day you don’t want to sit with me at lunch, three days later you invite me to your house for a sleepover, right? You kick me out, you take me back in.

There comes a point in a kid’s life where they’re old enough to make their own decisions. They’re going to school, they’re going to hang out with whoever they want. And I’m most interested in supporting the parents who actually can’t control who their kid hangs out with.

Because if it were as easy as just saying, “Well, you can’t go over to their house anymore,” that would be fine. But it’s not—because the kid’s going to make their own social choices when they’re out and about.

So I think the answer is that relationships are a classroom. Relationships are a place where we learn all kinds of life skills—including how to say what we want, how to compromise, how to forgive, and how to end a relationship.

I think that while it is incredibly frustrating and stressful for a parent to watch their child return to an aggressor, trying to remain as much of a guide as you can to your child, rather than bringing down the hammer, is key.

So, in other words, one strategy I’ve suggested—which is not maybe for everyone—but it’s kind of like: think about a friend you’ve had in your life as an adult who keeps going back to somebody who isn’t good to them. Maybe you remember—they were in a relationship with a crappy person—and you’re like, “What are you doing with that person? Why are you dating them?”

And you probably weren’t yelling at them or saying, “You better stop dating them or I’m not going to be your friend anymore.” You had to stick with them as they figured it out, and you knew they were learning and you hoped they would learn.

There’s a bit of that with your kid. Your kid is not your friend—your kid is much more triggering than your friend—but they’re actually in a very similar learning experience to your friend who’s dating somebody that everyone knows isn’t right for them.

And so as a parent, you want to stay connected and say, “Okay, so what’s your takeaway from what just happened? What are you learning about this person—how they’re treating you?” And you’re going to say it a hundred times before maybe some neuron fires next week or next year, and they’re like, “Oh, I get it.”

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: Like, they need to keep hearing from you. They need to keep hearing that this isn’t a good person—that this person’s not good to you, that this person doesn’t have the values our friends have.

Sarah: That happened with my daughter—with a best friend from birth, too. I think it was around age eight when things started shifting, and the girl started being pretty mean to my daughter.

And it took her four years until she finally made the decision on her own. One thing happened, and it finally cracked it open for her, and she just said, “I don’t think [name] and I are best friends anymore.”

She cried for about three hours, and she went through maybe a month or two of grieving that friendship. But that was kind of like—it had been the straw that broke the camel’s back, where she finally saw everything in the true light. You know what I mean?

But it was so hard for those four years to watch her keep going back and trying and giving her the benefit of the doubt. Anyhow, it was rough.

Rachel: It was rough. And what do you think she learned from that?

Sarah: Well, I think she learned to look other places for friends. And I think she learned how she wanted to be treated.

So we’ve talked about how to support your child who’s going through this. Is there anything you recommend doing with the other child’s parents or with the school to support your child?

Rachel: Yeah. I mean, I think it depends on their age, right?

Sarah: Let’s say tweens.

Rachel: Okay. I think it depends. So first, with the other parents—it’s important to remember that if you call another kid’s parents without clearing it with your own kid first, you just never know what those other parents are going to disclose to their own child.

If you don’t know these parents well, you have no idea whether they’d go to their kid and say, “Guess who called me today?” So, as much as possible, have some communication with your own child about reaching out to another parent, especially if you don’t know that parent or have a prior relationship.

I understand the intention is to help, but when you call another parent, you can’t control what that parent does with your words—or how that affects your own child. So you have to be very careful.

Now, does that mean you always have to have your child’s permission to reach out? No, it doesn’t. There are times where you’ll just do that because that’s your job. I just want people to be aware of that.

Also, when you call another parent, it’s critical to start the conversation with: “I know I only have one perspective here. I know I can only see what I can see. Can you tell me if there are things I’m not seeing? I’d love to know what’s going on from your perspective.”

In other words, you’re not going in heavy-handed or accusatory—you’re going in with humility. It’s okay to say you’re upset and to talk about what you know, but it’s critical to maintain the humility of realizing you don’t know everything.

And that children—just like everyone else—can have their own distortions or lenses through which they experience their peers.

Finally, when you talk to another parent, be very precise in your language when you describe what happened. Stick to the behaviors that allegedly occurred.

Like, you can say, “My understanding is that your kid called my kid with some kids over while they were having a sleepover, and it left my daughter feeling pretty embarrassed and hurt. Can you tell me more about what you know?”

So you’re not saying, “Your kid did this and really messed up my kid.” You’re saying, “Here’s my understanding of what happened, and here was the impact.” Those are two things you can control knowing—without accusing.

Sarah: Yeah, that makes sense. I made all the mistakes with my friend’s daughter’s mother, so yeah, I think your advice is good.

And I wish I had had it then. It’s so hard not to rush in as a parent, especially when kids are younger. It’s so hard not to rush in and try to—like you said—right things, to try to fix it and make things better.

There’s just a comment from Mare—when we were talking about kids going back to people who are unkind—she said that her grandson, who I know is nine, told her that he’s “an easy mark.” And when she asked why he felt that way, he said his friend punched him in the stomach and he just accepted that and continues to be friends with him.

Do you have any words for her around that—how she might support her grandson?

Rachel: Yeah. I mean, first of all, I like that he’s comfortable talking to his grandmother in that way—how wonderful for her that he’s so vulnerable and authentic. So I would, as the grandma, be very cautious and handle delicately the vulnerability your grandson’s giving you.

And I would be very inquisitive. I’d put on my coach’s hat and say, “Tell me more about that. Tell me more about what happens and why. Tell me more about your decision to accept it. What do you think would happen if you didn’t accept it?”

I’ve learned a lot in the later part of my career about the importance of just holding space for people to talk something through. You don’t have to give advice. You don’t have to have an idea. You can just ask questions and let them talk it through.

Talking aloud to someone who cares and listens closely is not that different from journaling. Both can help you arrive at new insights that you couldn’t otherwise on your own—but don’t require someone telling you what to do.

So I think that kind of stance, if you can take it with your grandson, would be very effective—and you’d probably learn a ton.

Sarah: Thanks. That’s great. So the final part of that three-part question that we keep getting back to is—what about with the school?

One thing that I thought was interesting in your book is you talked about how a lot of the kids that are doing the relational aggression have a lot of social status, and that it often flies under the radar—that the teachers don’t see what’s going on.

I think that would make it especially tricky to try to get support from the school if they’re not seeing what your child is reporting back to you.

Rachel: Yes, it does make it tricky. And you know, psychological aggression is just that—it’s psychological. So unless you’re listening, you’d miss it.

It’s also the case that—like Eddie Haskell in Leave It to Beaver—when the adult shows up, a lot of the most aggressive kids turn into very likable, charming, dynamic kids. They know how to work the adults in the room.

This is why even the most devoted, skilled teachers who really want to catch this stuff still say to me, “Why don’t I see it? I’m trying so hard.”

That does make it hard. And I say that because it makes it particularly hard for a school to respond if they’re like, “We don’t see it.”

So, when you talk to the school, it’s important to keep that in mind—that this stuff might not be visible.

It’s also important to practice that same humility, because often the school does see things you don’t. They may have awareness of the different sides of the story.

Schools are filled with human beings who are tired, and if they get a two-page single-spaced email from a parent at 11:30 at night with a call the next morning saying, “Why haven’t you responded?”—they’re not super psyched to work with you.

Treating people like they’re customer-service reps who are there to serve you—especially if you pay tuition—I understand why that happens, but you’re going to catch a lot more flies with honey.

Sarah: Than with vinegar.

Rachel: Yeah, I couldn’t remember what the insect was—but I think you catch more flies with honey.

It’s hard. It’s heavy. It’s a tall ask, because you’re hurting as a parent—you’re frustrated, you’re angry, you’re worried about your kid. But it’s a really complex situation.

A couple other ways to approach this: figure out if your school has an anti-bullying or behavior policy that acknowledges these more indirect forms of aggression.

Also, I’d caution parents against using the word bullying unless it actually meets that definition. That’s a big turn-off for school administrators and teachers when parents elevate something to bullying that isn’t.

Bullying is more of a protracted campaign of one person against another, typically with a big power dynamic. Most of what kids experience are acts of aggression, but not ongoing campaigns.

So being careful about the words you use is important too.

And then, see what training teachers have—what professional development they’ve been given around what to look out for, how to manage their classrooms.

There was a long period in my life where all I did was professional development sessions for schools. We talked about, “Have you talked to your students about body language? About the power of rolling your eyes when someone speaks up, or laughing, or staring?”

Those are silent behaviors, but they send strong messages. Many teachers don’t have those conversations with students—and that’s the kind of thing that makes a difference in communicating expectations.

Sarah: Someone on the call just asked a question related to that. She’s curious what you have to say about shame being used by girls as a form of aggression—especially middle schoolers.

Rachel: That’s interesting—when you say shame, meaning like trying to shame the target for something they’ve done?

Sarah: Yeah, she says yes. Like rolling your eyes at somebody when they do something—that would make someone feel a sense of shame. She also said her daughter was shamed for talking to boys.

Rachel: Yeah. So I think there’s quite a bit of shame that both boys and girls experience.

So—sorry, I’m reading the comments too—your daughter was shamed for talking to boys who came to their lunch table, and was asked to sit at a different lunch table?

Yeah, I wonder if that’s about shaming for breaking an unwritten code—“We don’t talk to boys.” Which can also be rooted in cultural expectations around girls—like, “You’re such a slut if you talk to boys,” or “We don’t.”

And so there’s a way in which girls can police each other and shame each other by channeling messages from the culture that they’ve learned.

What I have to say about that is that girls do become agents of the culture—and of patriarchal culture—that says, “You’re not supposed to talk to boys because that means you must be sexual with them,” or, “We just don’t like those people, so we’re going to punish you.”

Boys will do it to each other too—when they’re vulnerable or show feelings.

So, to support a girl who’s going through that: if we think about the definition of shame, it’s to feel like you are a bad person—that your core identity is defective.

The difference between shame and guilt is that shame is about you, and guilt is about the thing you did.

We’re all vulnerable to shame, but I think tween girls are particularly so because they’re both able to understand what adults are saying and still in a very self-focused moment in development. That’s a pretty toxic brew.

It means you can easily take on shame without fully understanding what’s being said to you.

So I think just really taking a moment to say, “You are a good human being. You are valued. You are loved. You’re not alone.”

You may not think a moment like this requires those words, but if your child is feeling ashamed because of those behaviors, it’s important to remind them they’re just like everyone else—in the best way—and that even if they’ve been othered or singled out, they’re still part of a loved whole, whether that’s family or friends.

Sarah: Yeah, when you were saying that, I was reminded of something I did with my daughter that I talk about a lot—making sure our children, even if they’re having social troubles or not feeling like they have friends or the friends they want—making sure they feel unconditionally loved and appreciated and delighted in and celebrated at home can be very protective, I think.

And I’ve heard adults talk about that—who were bullied—and say, “The only reason I came through it with my self-esteem intact was that my parents made me believe this wasn’t happening because there was something wrong with me.” They made me feel loved and celebrated and appreciated at home.

So I think that’s something for all of us to keep sight of too—if our kids are having friendship troubles—to do the work at home to help them.

Rachel: Yes. A thousand percent. That has nothing to do with their friends.

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: Yes.

Sarah: Okay, two more questions before we let you go. A question from a member who couldn’t be on the call: any advice for making future friends once they’ve gone through a mean relationship?

So this person’s child is on the other side of a difficult elementary school relationship, starting middle school at a new school, and is finding it hard—maybe she’s a little hesitant about making new friends after what she’s gone through. Any advice about that?

Rachel: I think you validate it. You validate the hesitation.

And you also say, “Hey—do you notice how many people date and break up and then start dating new people? Or get divorced and marry new people? Friendships are the same thing.”

We’re not meant to have one best friend forever—that’s a myth. People lose friends and also cut loose people that aren’t right for them.

Maybe your daughter’s been through that—but remind her we’re constantly regenerating new connections.

It’s okay to feel a little gun-shy or apprehensive. Ask, “What would make you feel more comfortable making new friends so you don’t feel like you’re exposing yourself too much?”

Again, always staying curious, inquisitive—not assuming you know what’s right because you’re the parent—but asking, “What would need to be true for you to feel comfortable making this new friendship?”

Maybe she’s not comfortable socializing one-on-one outside of school for a long time and wants to keep it to school. That’s okay.

So being flexible and kind of flexing to where your child is, while also holding the line about the importance of continuing to connect—that’s important.

Sarah: Love that. My final question to you is one I ask all my podcast guests—and you can answer this in any context, not just what we were talking about today—but if you had a time machine and could go back to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?

Rachel: Oh my God, so much. Don’t let your kid have YouTube as early as you did. That would be the first one.

I guess I’d say that feeling out of control is normal—and you’ve got to learn to breathe through that more. Yelling isn’t going to give you anything but a false sense of control, and it’s just going to upset your kid.

That’s the truth of it. I think I would’ve yelled less if I’d been more comfortable with the discomfort—feeling like things were out of control and I couldn’t manage or have the solution for something.

Sarah: Love that. Thank you so much for joining us. Where’s the best place for folks to find out more about you and what you do?

Rachel: Find me at rachelsimmons.com.

Sarah: All right. Thank you so much, Rachel.

Rachel: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Great questions.

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