Defense-in-Depth and Swiss-Cheese Model

This interview was recorded for GOTO State of the Art in November 2025.
https://gotopia.tech

Read the full transcription of this interview here:
https://gotopia.tech/articles/425

Adrian Mouat - Developer Relations at Chainguard & Author of 'Using Docker'
Charles Humble - Freelance Techie, Podcaster, Editor, Author & Consultant

RESOURCES
Adrian
https://bsky.app/profile/adrianmouat.com
https://twitter.com/adrianmouat
https://github.com/amouat
https://linkedin.com/in/adrianmouat
http://www.adrianmouat.com

Charles
https://bsky.app/profile/charleshumble.bsky.social
https://linkedin.com/in/charleshumble
https://mastodon.social/@charleshumble
https://conissaunce.com

Links
https://images.chainguard.dev
https://www.cisa.gov/sbom
https://www.chainguard.dev/supply-chain-security-101/the-npm-registry-cant-protect-you-the-new-javascript-supply-chain-attacks
https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/discovering-the-xz-backdoor-with-andres-freund
https://edu.chainguard.dev

DESCRIPTION
In this State of the Art episode, Charles Humble speaks with Adrian Mouat, Developer Relations at Chainguard and author of "Using Docker", about the evolution of container security and the persistent challenge of outdated packages.

Adrian explains how traditional Linux distributions weren't designed for the immutable, frequently-replaced nature of containers, leading to security vulnerabilities that scanners detect but teams struggle to address. He discusses how Chainguard tackles this problem by building everything from source using Wolfi, creating minimal "distroless" images with near-zero CVEs, and how concepts like SBOMs, attestations, and defense in depth are reshaping security practices.

The conversation also covers major security incidents including the XZ Utils backdoor and Shai-hulud attacks, emphasizing the importance of building from source, using short-lived credentials, and replacing rather than updating containers – practices pioneered by companies like Google that are gradually spreading across the industry.

RECOMMENDED BOOKS
Adrian Mouat • Using Docker • https://amzn.to/3PEYIJL
Liz Rice • Container Security • https://amzn.to/3oU4iJe
Liz Rice • Kubernetes Security • https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/kubernetes-security/9781492039075

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