Measuring Visibility Inside LLMs

The ground beneath the digital marketing industry is shifting. For decades, the mantra was simple: optimize for traffic, measure clicks, and track conversions. But with the rise of Generative AI, Large Language Models (LLMs), and Answer Engines, that rulebook is obsolete. In this powerful episode, I sit down with Joe Doveton to discuss the urgent reality facing every brand that relies on web traffic.

We dive into the phenomenon Joe calls the "Crocodile Mouth", the unsettling visual trend where brands maintain high search impressions but see clicks vanish, a direct result of zero-click searches. With the proliferation of platforms like TikTok, Reddit, and various generative engines, we discuss why the Google monopoly on the customer journey is over, and how users can now move from the awareness stage to purchasing a product without ever visiting a Google property. This episode is a wake-up call for marketers still clinging to outdated KPIs.

Joe introduces the new alphabet soup of optimization, GEO (Generative Engine Optimization), AEO (Answer Engine Optimization), and LLMO (Large Language Model Optimization). Crucially, we explore what this means for your analytics. If traffic and conversion rate are "lousy metrics", what should you measure? Joe reveals emerging metrics like Visibility within LLMs and competitive positioning. Most importantly, we agree that this "Wild West" era is finally killing all the outdated SEO hacks, forcing brands back to the core long-term strategy: writing useful content and focusing on the customer experience.

About the Guest

Joe Doveton is an experienced digital strategist, consultant, and speaker focused on the intersection of AI, search, and customer experience. With a background that includes working in advertising and a deep understanding of Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO), Joe is now pioneering tools and strategies for the Generative Engine Optimization (GEO) space. He is the founder of GEO Jet Pack, a platform designed to extract and visualize entities from content to help brands gain visibility in LLM responses - a critical new metric for the AI era.

What You'll Learn

• The difference between traditional SEO and the new acronyms: GEO, AEO, and LLMO.
• What the "Crocodile Mouth" is and why it confirms the end of the reliance on clicks.
• Why the old marketing KPIs, specifically web traffic and conversion rate—are now "lousy metrics" for measuring success.
• The new metrics emerging for the middle of the funnel, such as Visibility within LLMs and competitive position within prompt responses.
• Why the entire AI shift proves that long-term SEO success is still about being useful, interesting, and trustworthy (EEAT).
• Why the current AI era is killing all the old SEO hacks and discouraging tactics like content farming.
• How and why brands like Google are undermining their own profitable ad business by integrating AI Overviews.
• The vision of the Semantic Web and why the current structure of websites is inherently ill-suited for machine consumption.

Guest Contact:

• Joe Doveton's website
• Joe Doveton on LinkedIn

No Hacks is a podcast about web performance, technical SEO, and the agentic web. Hosted by Slobodan "Sani" Manic.