Experience vs. callousness debate

In this episode of Based Camp, Malcolm and Simone revisit studies showing that men who report higher mating success (more consensual partners, perceived attractiveness) are also more likely to self-report coercive/forceful sexual behaviors — a bimodal pattern (high-success “Chads” and low-status desperate men). They argue this isn’t always genuine assault but often experienced men misreading “token resistance” in consensual kink/dominance play, or contextual factors where women don’t label or report it negatively.

The Collinses contrast this with Red Pill misconceptions: women don’t crave gruff, aggressive “dread game” misogynists but rather charismatic, self-assured, ruthless-pragmatic, “fey/vampire-like” pretty-boy types (e.g., host club hosts, David Bowie, Johnny Depp, Justin Bieber archetypes) who show intense interest, build women up, and display confidence without crude dominance. They also tie in benevolent sexism (protective/pedestal beliefs) appealing more than hostile sexism, prestige over brute dominance for long-term appeal, and dark triad traits as adaptive for short-term mating but maladaptive long-term.

They frame their investigation through a re-examination of their own early dating (Malcolm’s blunt/pragmatic “dread” approach, plans not to commit, pushing Simone’s career/life strategy), concluding that real attraction stems from aligned values, assertiveness, interest in her goals, and pragmatic effectiveness — not cruelty or performative misogyny. It ends casually with family interruptions and dinner plans.

Episode Transcript

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] you helped me understand that I might have been significantly more dark triad in the way I

treated you early in our relationship,

Simone Collins: 100% more. We’ve talked about this.

Malcolm Collins: Not on air. Oh

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I’m here like, guys, just be nice to girls. , Treat her with respect, you know, meanwhile, early in my relationship,

Simon.

But the point is, in the context, it sounds really bad when you go in context.

Simone Collins: Explaining you, you, you’re

Malcolm Collins: explain you’re

Simone Collins: a human manifestation of the research case study Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: I was just explaining why li she comes to me. You gotta understand this guys.

So like what I did first date, I, I could it have been considered essay by progress?

Oh yeah, that’s true.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And

Simone Collins: oh my god. Malcolm, what did you do?

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. Today we are gonna be [00:01:00] going over some studies that show that women are worse than I even knew in terms of the types of partners that they go for because I told you these this morning and you were shocked. Not only do feminist women prefer more misogynistic men will go into that study but in addition to that males.

Who admit to griping women are boast more popular and have more consensual sexual partners than men who do not. And so we will go over all of the studies around this, what this really means. And before I go too deep into this, what I will point out that we’re going to find with the gring behavior

Simone Collins: mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: It’s, this is more of a bimodal distribution. Oh. Which means that you see this sort of aggressive coercive sexuality in both men who are unusually successful, IE unusually popular unusually sexually successful. And you see it in men who are unusually dumb, unsuccessful see themselves as pathetic.

Right.

Simone Collins: That [00:02:00] makes logical sense. Yeah, I could totally see that.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, it makes perfect evolutionary sense too, right? Like

Simone Collins: also bad. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The, the, well, because you’re at the top, you can get away with it, you know, impregnate as many people as possible. Yeah. You’re at the bottom. There’s no other way.

You’re going to pass on your genes, so you might as well go for row.

Simone Collins: Yeah. No choice but to, yeah. All, all in all or nothing. .

Malcolm Collins: But what’s interesting is it, how women respond to all of this.

Speaker 23: From Johnson and Hedges open. Why kids? Because I’ve gotta great you in the mouth.

I’m not sure that I’m comfortable with the catchphrase. I’m gonna grape you in the mouth. For our new mascot.

Malcolm Collins: The second thing that we’ll be going over with this, because I’m gonna treat this in a bit of a follow up to the episode on host clubs.

Oh no. Is a lot of men see this in the Red Pill community and they misunderstand it. They think that women. Go for b******s, disproportionately uhhuh who are the male conception of [00:03:00] the b*****d. Yeah. Instead of the female conception of the b*****d and the and so they’re out there trying to act like entertain when what women go for is, not all men do, but it’s like a portion of the community that thinks that that’s, that’s.

The type of b*****d you wouldn’t want. There

Simone Collins: are b******s and there are b******s,

Malcolm Collins: ba host, host clubs. Yeah. Yeah. If you haven’t watched the host club episode, I, I can only imagine like your typical red pillar.

Simone Collins: You, you need to be a sociopath of a psychopath. No, not

Malcolm Collins: exactly. Yeah. It goes up, goes up to a host and it’s one of these pretty boy host club guys, because that’s what they all look like that we pointed out.

They’re all like, yeah, they’re,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Twinky looking, you know, very Fay. And he’s like, I’m so tough. You know, I’m, I’m, I’m full in to the dread game. You know, sometimes when my woman talks back, I even smack her. You know, I’m, I’m a real misogynist. And then the host club guy’s like, well. That’s very interesting.

And he’s like, what, what, what do you do with your women? And he is like, well, 80% of women who see me, I’ve [00:04:00] turned into sex slaves. And the guy’s like, what? For yourself? No, no, no, no. I actually sent them out to a brothel in Manila where they think most of the year they only see me for vacations and stuff like that.

For the rest of the time they’re essentially slaves. And he’s like, wait, what? Like, like, wait, wait, wait. What? What? Stop. Wait, we need to stop just as guys here. How many women. Like, like 35. That’s not okay guys. Like, this is man, man to man here.

Speaker: joker. Uh, it’s, it’s Bruce Wayne. Um, I just want you to know that like a normal person is under this that thinks it’s really, really bad that you do this, so stop doing it. Ugh, Batman.

Simone Collins: Like, yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s a new level of like profound screwed up.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. This is, no,

Simone Collins: this is like smack. Go into the kitchen and make me a sandwich. This is like, and [00:05:00] then.

Malcolm Collins: And then I’ll sell your organs.

Simone Collins: Yeah, my

Malcolm Collins: God. But the guy’s like, but I’m so polite about it. No, but I think that this is what we’re talking about, the host, this, this sort of Faye b*****d. It’s, it’s very vampire b*****d.

You know, it’s what women go for in their, their literature, but it is not the b*****d that men think that women are going for. So that’s what we’re gonna get into in this as well. Oh, and by the way, it is not uncommon even though the hosts dress up nice and everything like that to great. The women who are with them, it’s just the women don’t care or report them in the same way they do when a big gruff masculine man grapes them.

Right. Because of context. Which we’ll get into why this happens as well. ‘cause it’s very interesting.

We actually went a bit further on this after another episode recording that I’ll post here because it is so fun to watch Guy Thieve when they reflect on the type of man that women actually go for versus the type that the Manosphere community tells them that they go for.

Malcolm Collins: I’ve been posting, and I’ll put some in the next episode about like, why [00:06:00] misjudging, what women are interested in.

Oh, and I wanna put some of like David Bowie, you know? Oh God. Yeah. Like he’s a dark, sexy,

Speaker 3: My

baby,

Malcolm Collins: or like Justin Bieber. I’m like, do you

Simone Collins: Bieber? He’s a great example.

Malcolm Collins: You look at who women thirst over you buffon.

Like, why are you, it’s actually funny if you look at the, idols that women have thirsted over, whether it’s Prince or Michael Jackson or Justin Bieber, the b***h with, none of them have ever been buffed.

Simone Collins: I know, I know. It’s,

Malcolm Collins: here’s an even example. People will always point to Fabio and I’m like, I have never met a young woman who fantasized about Fabio. Okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know who, who it was, who thought that he would. Appeal or

Maybe he like appealed to this very specific generation. I really don’t know what’s up with that.

It, it is very bizarre to me.

Malcolm Collins: Have you ever met a woman who thought Fabio was attractive?

Simone Collins: No. Like, I, I’ve never, never [00:07:00] categorically, no. Yeah. Lots of Johnny

Malcolm Collins: dApps.

Speaker 4: Paul, that’s the one Paul A stole it.

Speaker 6: Not sure I deserve that.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Lots of, lots of pirates of the Caribbean,

Simone Collins: you know? Hundred percent. Yeah. Lots of,

Malcolm Collins: uh, lots of lokeys

Speaker 8: I have never met this man in my life. He’s my brother, adopted

He transformed himself into a snake and he knows that I love snakes, so I went to pick up the snake to admire it and he transformed back into himself and he was like, yeah, it’s me. And he stabbed me. We were eight at the time.

Simone Collins: And, and I mean, John and which, which, what’s funny about, the character of Jack Sparrow is that it’s just.

Keith Richards cosplay, but pirate style women like

Malcolm Collins: Keith Richards

Simone Collins: and, yeah. And, and Keith. Keith Richards is not exactly, uh, you know, he’s not the. Stereotypical buff man. Either he’s a, he’s a drugged out rockstar. , Anyway,

Malcolm Collins: So. In a article titled The Characteristics of Sexually Coercive Men and the [00:08:00] Nature of Sexual Coercion. And another one why do some men sexually coerce women in an evolutionary perspective?

What they found in, in this study and the corroborating ones, researchers surveyed heterosexual young adult men using questions about self reported use of force to obtain sex. EG have you had sexual intercourse with a woman even though she didn’t want to because because you use some degree of physical force.

They measured mating success via self reports of attractiveness of the opposite sex, number of partners, sexual history, et cetera. So the key findings. Men self-reported mating success. More consensual partners perceived attractiveness, positively correlated with the likelihood of admitting to using force or coercion.

Men reporting higher consensual partner counts were more likely to also report coercive behaviors. This went against. The mate deprivation ideas. Now note here it doesn’t go entirely against it because you also see a higher on the other end, but we’ll get to that in just a [00:09:00] second. A follow-up Correlary study Malfa 1998 replicated these findings.

And then a third relevant study sin Etal 2000, predicting coercive sexual behavior across the lifespan in a random sample of Canadian men. This used a community study study of 195 men, so this is pretty good, right? And these are Caucasian men as well. See, we’re looking at Caucasian audiences from a small Canadian city, which also keeps it, you know, very, you know, sort of insular here.

Found about 27% reported some sexual coercion slash assault. We’re around 7.7% reported attempted slash completed grape. Now. Adolescent promiscuity slash short-term mating success and more partners in adolescence was one of the strongest predictors of later sexual coercion. So it is the chads out there.

The, the, the. I know I saw this in a meme on the, the red, the base camp set where I saw it. They’re like, just imagine like the chance out there. [00:10:00] Like, yeah. You know, I, I sometimes grab a woman, like, whatever, just whatever.

Simone Collins: Oh my god. I mean, it, it totally makes sense though, because I think also the guys are like, well, I mean, women just feel so lucky to be with me. She’s just also, I think men who are more sexually experienced also are more aware of the fact that women, like on average dominance and then they may misread resistance for like, but no, please actually do, do the thing.

Malcolm Collins: Actually, this is a really strong point, so keep in mind this is not. The woman’s perspective on what happened that’s being judged here. This is them giving men questions about the type of , s sexual encounters they had when they had these encounters and what happened during those encounters, right?

And then they, the scientists get down and write in a book. This over went this line. That’s important within our community, right? Okay, I, I need to find a, [00:11:00] a way to say this. So if you are a guy who sleeps around a lot you are going to get very good at judging, like Simone said when a woman actually, like, when the resistance is part of the sexual experience for the woman or when the resistance is, yeah. Like a a, a genuine

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, it’s, it’s genuine. Yeah. It’s, it is not part of the game or like a playful fantasy, but real,

Malcolm Collins: real and meaningful and, this is something that just requires a lot of experience to know and, and what they’re saying here is men who have a lot of experience when they reply on these surveys, they go over boundaries that me, Mr.

Progressive scientists has categorized as coercion. When in reality, I’m, I’m gonna be honest here, and I think that a lot of the red pill has taken the wrong thing away from these particular studies. My guess is that a lot of it isn’t actually [00:12:00] coercion and that if you asked the women who were involved in these encounters, they would not have contextualized it as coercion.

They would be like, but. That was, what are you talking about? I, that I was not great.

Simone Collins: That was our thing.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. But to progressive. Okay. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll use an extreme example here, right? Okay. To maybe help somebody who might be struggling, understanding what I mean by this. Suppose you every day was your girl. You’re Mr. Amazing, progressive, and every day was your girl. You go and you have her sign out. The I consent to you know, rough s ecs today where I like to pretend to resist you, right? And that’s a common fantasy. That’s a common sex play game, right? So you do that every day, and you’ve done that every day for two or three months now.

And then one day you know, you’re in a situation and you begin to get frisky with each other [00:13:00] naturally because you didn’t have time to do the consent forms that day. And she starts to do all the things. That she normally does after signing the consent forms and you go along with it because that’s just what you’re doing now, you go talk to a scientist and the scientist says, Hmm, you went up.

She didn’t sign the consent form that day. And you’re like, I, I know her behavior patterns well enough to know what I’m doing here. Okay. So I, I wanna be clear about that because I think that’s a really strong point here. But what is important to note is that you see this across like all the studies, right?

So to go to more studies here, right? Laie Etal 1996, A test of mate deprivation, hypothesis of sexual coercion. This is one of the core studies behind the claim. In it, a sample of 156 young heterosexual men. Self-reported sexually coercive men had higher self-perceived mating success. More extensive sexual histories, more partners in greater preference for casual sex, partner variety, and lower earning [00:14:00] potential.

This is directly. Partner rating. Oh, and no lower earning potential. Oh, I was

Simone Collins: gonna say lower earning. This is that what

Malcolm Collins: directly. And then there’s Canon 1985. Study of self-identified date rapists college men 71. Self-disclose date, I didn’t get that. We want date rapists for this study. Were compared to controls.

The coercive men were 41% more sexually successful slash experienced. Then non-coercive peers was 41% is big by the way.

Simone Collins: That is a, yeah.

But I mean, I also would would say just, and of course the eighties was a different time. Let’s be very clear also, this is really old research, unfortunately.

One thing I noticed though, when, when I had my very brief stint on the dating market in 2012 in like the, the three months before I met you no one made a move. No one was assertive. And, and, and [00:15:00] that, I mean, now, now in, you know, more than 10 years later, men on college campuses, as we’ve been told by professors.

Are too afraid to even approach women because they’re afraid of being accused of something. This is creating an environment in which only people who, even if they’re like literally asking like just a, a girl for her phone number in some environments, will feel as though he is practically attacking her.

You know? Yeah. But I, I do think that it’s important to note that the utter lack of initiative. Being taken by many men would mean that any man who takes initiative is going to have a very extreme advantage.

Malcolm Collins: You, you talk about other men not taking initiative. So like what I did first date, I, I could it have been considered essay by progress?

I think it, I never asked for your consent. I basically just led you to an isolated location. Oh yeah, that’s true. Which came up against the wall.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And

Simone Collins: oh [00:16:00] my god. Malcolm, what did you do?

Malcolm Collins: Recontextualization. Now you’re like, oh God, I was sexually assaulted by my husband. Um, But I had the experience to know that that’s like that, that, and this is what I talk about.

Remember I said like the. It’s not just about having the experience to know, oh, there’s one person who I’ve been signing this contract with every day. I had enough experience with different women that when I saw the way you were reacting to everything I was doing I didn’t expect any sort of, like, you didn’t have a negative reaction when you went home that night.

You weren’t like

Simone Collins: mm-hmm. No.

Malcolm Collins: Journaling. Oh my god. Worst night of my life.

Simone Collins: Yeah. No, not at all.

Malcolm Collins: Um, Yeah.

Well, no, but I mean, what was your reaction? So this is something that they would’ve categorized as essay, like,

Simone Collins: I guess is it, I mean, I, we would have to look at the survey design to determine it, but Yeah. I mean, you, you didn’t, we didn’t have, we didn’t stop and have a conversation [00:17:00] about words, boundaries, actions, safe words.

No, but I

Malcolm Collins: also used my physicality to restrain you before.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And you also. Yeah, like we were in a, an isolated, private area.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So I had

Simone Collins: taken you

Malcolm Collins: somewhere isolated. No one can hear

Simone Collins: me scream.

Malcolm Collins: I physically restrained you.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right. And so what was your thought then, or after that?

Simone Collins: Que I, I was obviously excited and very taken with you.

Like,

Malcolm Collins: no, but, but the, the point I’m making is. Would you have felt the same way if I had gone over like a list of like, okay, I’m gonna do X with you now and I’m gonna do Y with you now?

Simone Collins: Well, for some people that’s like a form of dirty talker fore playwright. Like, I’m gonna do this to you and I’m gonna do that to, is it

Malcolm Collins: to you?

Simone Collins: I don’t, I don’t know. I, I’m, because no one’s ever done that with me before, so I couldn’t tell you.

Malcolm Collins: The only one you’ve ever Yeah. Okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I really don’t know.

Malcolm Collins: To [00:18:00] continue here. Abby Etal various longitudinal studies, 2000 onwards on college. Men repeat SA perpetrators. Men who coerced multiple times had the most extreme scores on promiscuity related measures.

More lifetime dating partners earlier age of first consensual more consensual partners over time and higher alcohol use in sexual context. They also scored higher on hostility towards women callous attitudes and adolescent delinquency. Well that.

Simone Collins: I think anyone who’s exposed more to anything has a more callous attitude.

True. You know, nurses in the NICU have, I mean, they’re, they’re, they care. They can care a lot about babies, but they also have a more callous attitude because they’ve been exposed to a lot. You know, they’re not gonna have the same heightened reaction to every little thing. Because they, and doctors too, people at the DMV, like, they just.

Don’t like when you’ve exposed to a certain number, like a a, a scenario type or a person type A certain number of times [00:19:00] policemen Right. You know, they, they see a lot of stuff. Right. Whereas like you and I would step onto a crime scene, we would maybe vomit. Right? Like, a lot of EMTs in their, in their first rounds will, will.

Vomit out of, you know, disgust or fear or all these sorts of things. Right. And then over time they don’t because they get used to it. So of course they’re gonna get, like, it would be weird if they weren’t more callous because they’re more experienced. It’s weird that that would be reframed as some kind of d disturbing, dark triad trait when it’s just a a, it’s a reality of becoming experienced.

Does that make sense?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. No, I actually think that’s a, a good one. And that’s sort of what I’m realizing when I go through these. It’s not clear to me what’s just experience and what you,

Simone Collins: yeah, like a good control would be boys who’ve had a lot of, who have a lot of sisters. You know, like, are are, are they more callous to women?

I mean, they’re also more attuned, like it’s a double-edged [00:20:00] sword. Right?

Malcolm Collins: Well, hold on, let’s go directly into dark triad trait here. Abby Etal, various longitudinal studies.

Simone Collins: Oh, wait, no, ‘cause actually I looked this up. Remember I looked up, did, did do du Bois who have a lot of sisters, are they more progressive or conservative

Malcolm Collins: and they’re more conservative.

The more sisters you have. Oh, I love that you expand our knowledge by searching things like that. This how, but

Simone Collins: I think that shows like,

Malcolm Collins: no, no. Hold on, hold on. This is host behavior here.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: Steve, this is how you’ve gotta talk to a woman to subdue her.

Simone Collins: Oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: Continue.

Simone Collins: No, you, you

Malcolm Collins: care. Anyway, so, so, dark Triad Traits and short term mating success. Multiple studies. Johnson Atal 2009 Johnson and Kavanaugh 2010, and review slash Synthesis up until recent years show that men that are higher in dark triad traits report more sexual partners and have a greater preference for short-term unrestricted mating and higher mating success in casual context.

These traits facilitate exploitative acts [00:21:00] including,

Simone Collins: wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. They’re like. Guys with higher body counts appear to have more interest in short-term relations. I mean, obviously how do you get a higher body count when like, I’m so confused.

Malcolm Collins: I think that one of the things that researchers miss in a lot of the research on the dark triad traits correlating with more partners misses, is that as you, settle down or, or, or become more monogamous or in a long term relationship as a guy. Mm-hmm. Your psychology changes pretty dramatically. Your hormonal profile changes pretty dramatically. And your rate of dark triad traits is going to decrease pretty dramatically. Mm-hmm. So a guy who is in a long-term relationship with lots of kids.

Take me now versus me before is going to be dramatically less dark triad than a guy who is sleeping around a lot. And, and that’s, that’s just part adaptive psychology, right? [00:22:00] Like if dark triad traits make it easier for you to impregnate a lot of women and not have to worry about the consequences your body is going to adapt to that because that’s what you’re genetically optimized to do.

When you are in a long-term partnership and have five or six kids running around the house having dark T traits is, biologically maladaptive, right? And I think that the red pill has convinced too many guys to take pride in dark triad traits for their own sake. Then understanding that it is an adaptive mechanism for short-term partner cleaning up.

And not although you helped me understand that I might have been significantly more dark triad in the way I

treated you early in our relationship,

Simone Collins: 100% more. We’ve talked about this.

Malcolm Collins: Not on air. Oh

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Maybe

Simone Collins: not. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So you told me this morning, I was like, oh, I was nice enough to you, and you were like, you were not you were like early in our relationship.

Well, you, you could say it.

Simone Collins: I mean, well, [00:23:00] your, your plan was to never marry me. Go marry some Hess or like prestigious Stanford. MBA grad. And then just basically use me for free labor as your side, side piece because I helped you a lot with like your work and entrepreneurial stuff and like, I was just like a work engine, a workhorse, and you knew that I was also obsessed with you.

And so no matter what. You could depend on me to just be your girl Friday. And, and always be there for you, even though you had some other wife and you probably would continue sleeping with me anyway. And because you were, you were joking about how like, well you were, you know, like you weren’t so sure about me.

I’m like, well, obviously I wasn’t, because obviously you weren’t planning to commit to me. You are planning to exploit me. Not provide really anything. You all in return didn’t tell me. Like, I remember

Malcolm Collins: I wasn’t, I I didn’t

Simone Collins: lay this off. You were honest about that. You were very explicit about that. You, you, yeah.

I didn’t good enough for you, but I was still [00:24:00] useful to you. And, and, and, and it’s such a surprise to you that my parents weren’t immediately enthused when you proposed to me. And that, that they were a little reticent, that they didn’t give you

Malcolm Collins: the wait. Did you tell them? I had said that.

Simone Collins: I don’t think I had, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know how they picked up on it, but like, no, I, I asked you this morning, I was like, listen, if, if you knew that that was the dynamic of like one of our daughter’s boyfriends, would you give him your blessing?

Probably not.

Malcolm Collins: I should be clear here. I didn’t lay this out to Simone as part of some like psychological dread game or anything like that. No. It

Simone Collins: was the truth. It was the truth.

Malcolm Collins: I was just like. You do not have right now a particularly good job. You didn’t go to a top university and I wasn’t inherit any money.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Like I can probably secure somebody who brings in at least, you know, 10, 20 million from a, an Hess or something. Right. You know? And if I, I do really well, 50, 60 million, then I don’t have to worry about [00:25:00] money anymore or. Somebody who has an elite degree who’s gonna get a good job and support me, right?

Mm-hmm. Like I, you know, I, I was just like, laid it out. Like, I’m like, I, I’ve got the, the credentials I need to secure a partner like that, right? Like, and I did and I was like, so why would I. Like, and it wasn’t just that you told me you didn’t wanna marry, you told me you didn’t want a relationship, and so I was like, fine.

Simone Collins: Right? Yeah, no, I, I was, I was also transparent that my, my mission was to fall in love and have my heart broken in one ear. This is why we both amicably, amicably agreed to break up on July 31st, first, but this wasn’t like a, the problem was you planned on not respecting my desire to just move on and be alone forever.

After that, you were like, ah, I could still like use you for free work.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and I said, you want that ultimately because it’s not like you had somebody else you were gonna go to, to work for or,

Simone Collins: but Yeah, but I, I would feel terrible if I was doing it because I loved you and you were with some other woman, [00:26:00]

Malcolm Collins: Simon.

But the point is, in the context, it sounds really bad when you go in context.

Simone Collins: Explaining you, you, you’re

Malcolm Collins: explain you’re

Simone Collins: a human manifestation of the research case study Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: I was just explaining why li she comes to me. You gotta understand this guys. So she comes to

Simone Collins: me. Were you the victim here? That’s true. It’s true. People on the internet are like, wow. He’s way out of her league.

Malcolm Collins: So she

Simone Collins: tell what happened there?

Malcolm Collins: She says, I’m just looking to fall in love and have my heart broken. ‘cause I’ve never dated, I’ve never slept with anyone. I’ve never done any of that. Mm-hmm. I wanna call it off. I do not wanna be married. I do not wanna be in a long-term relationship.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So when I’m telling her all of this stuff about who I wanted to marry, what I was looking for in a partner, I was telling her all this stuff.

Was the understanding that we were going to break up. That it, she made me promise that I was gonna break [00:27:00] up with her. Yeah. This is not me like trying to. Psych her out or something like that. But the the point being is that when you, when you tell it back the way that you are telling it, ‘cause here’s the way I saw it.

Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. I’m just, you’re telling me I have to break up with you. Okay. So I’m just telling you, well, this is what I’m gonna do after I break up with you. This is what I’m looking for in a partner. If you know any women like this, let me know.

Simone Collins: You weren’t gonna marry me.

Malcolm Collins: Hold, hold on. Yeah, because you told me not to marry.

You told me you wanted to break up.

Simone Collins: You were also No, no. You said, look, I’m not looking to date. I’m looking to find a wife and I intend to find her at Stanford where there’s a large school. True.

Malcolm Collins: And you said you wanted to break up. You were very clear. And so the thing that you are mad at me about,

Simone Collins: I’m not mad at you.

I’m not

Malcolm Collins: mad.

Simone Collins: I’m, I’m not mad.

Malcolm Collins: The thing you were distressed about at the time.

Simone Collins: Distressed. I just didn’t listen. I wanted to fall in love and have my heart broken and get over it. I didn’t [00:28:00] wanna be like,

Malcolm Collins: yes, that’s the point. You wanted to get over it.

Simone Collins: You wanted to Sisyphus me. I

Malcolm Collins: didn’t want that. No. Here I’m good guy Malcolm, who’s like, I’m not gonna abandon my friend and business partner.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: I wanted with her.

Simone Collins: Thanks Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: She’s so fun to talk to. Right. You know, they said, well, what are you even talking about? I was just like, oh, I really enjoy spending time with her and working with her. So, of course, even though we break up and I find a, a real wife, she’s, we’re still gonna work together.

We’re still gonna be friends. She wanted me to like go.

So,

Simone Collins: and, and in fairness to Malcolm he was on good terms with every ex-girlfriend. Like

Malcolm Collins: there

Simone Collins: was no, there was no ambiguity that we wouldn’t be on good terms. Yeah, like

Malcolm Collins: one of my exes was one of my like brides names. Like one of no groomsmen, right?

Simone Collins: Yes. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, yeah.

Simone Collins: The most attractive person at our wedding for like, everyone agreed. Even my parents.

Malcolm Collins: That was really embarrassing that your parents agreed.

Simone Collins: My parents don’t [00:29:00] lie. They’re not liars and I.

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I will admit how do I put this?

Simone Collins: That they were right and that

Malcolm Collins: they were all right. No, not that, just a, when contrasted with the women I had dated before you.

That was another thing that probably put you in that second because I date very attractive people typically.

Simone Collins: It’s true. It’s true. He’s right. It’s,

What does a zula say?

Speaker 18: She was right, of course, but it still hurt

Malcolm Collins: yeah, it hurt, it hurts, but she’s Right. Right. And I, and I’m, and I often preach on this channel that you should not just marry someone because you think that they’re the hottest person you’re gonna get to marry,

Simone Collins: hire the smart fat girl.

Malcolm Collins: You should go for the, the, the, the workhorse, which everybody knows is what I wanted, right. Uhhuh. Mm-hmm. I am, I’m a workhorse guy. Right. You’re very attractive. I will say.

Simone Collins: You wanted, you wanted Whistler’s mother or not. The thought. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: but you weren’t necessarily when contrasted. But the point I’m making here is I created an environment that [00:30:00] was way more dread game than I now contextualize it as having been.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You, you forgot that whole. That whole thing. That whole thing.

Malcolm Collins: That whole thing.

I’m here like, guys, just be nice to girls. Like, whatcha talking about, you know, treat her with respect, you know, meanwhile, early in my relationship,

Simone Collins: well, but I mean, there’s, there’s so many lawyers to it. And I think, you know, part of the fantasy too is this, like the female makeover transformation thing.

Right. And like you did like this, we dated before 50 Shades of Gray was even written, right? I think so. I think so. Yeah. But like, one thing that happens is, is in 50 shades of gray, Christian Gray, this like billionaire, whatever. I think he. I could, I haven’t read the books and I haven’t watched, I could not watch all, like, it’s so bad to, I just can’t.

Ugh. But I, he, I think he puts her on a diet. He like tries to hire her, like, people, women like this. Like he’s gonna [00:31:00] make me better, kind of, oh, I did that when you were dating and did, no, you were like, well, like what do you wanna achieve in your life? And well, how can you achieve it and how can you be more systematic about that?

And we completely changed my life strategy to not around your goals. Your goals for me or your interest in how you could exploit me, but rather what I stated as my personal life’s goals and dreams, and you helped me achieve them more effectively than my undergraduate college experience than like any other advisor or mentor that.

Yeah, like,

Malcolm Collins: like during the few months we were dating, she went from the like managing the company’s Facebook account to being the director of marketing at the 45th highest traffic website in the, in the us.

Simone Collins: It’s true. I did get a major promotion and I got a lot more responsibilities, but I did more than just manage those Facebook

Malcolm Collins: teams position at TechCrunch.

Where you never, what was it? Not TechCrunch, it was the what’s that big tech fest in Austin?

Simone Collins: Oh, I spoke at South Pi. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You won some big competition that I encouraged you to apply to, and you spoke at South by Southwest and then. We changed your outfit, we changed your, [00:32:00] we worked on like all sorts of, all, all over change, which again I guess, could look Machiavellian or dismissive that I’m like this.

Simone Collins: No, no, no. The point I was making with that was that it’s not just that you were dread gaming me and being mean you were also. To, to the point we made in the host club episode where like the one guy giving advice on how he makes a lot of money as a host is he, you know, builds a dossier of the women’s interests and what they’re up to.

Mm-hmm. And then he, he focuses in on the, you, you, you intimately got to understand what I thought and what I valued, and then Yes. And did that into, well then how do we do this more for you? How do I make your dreams come true? And that, that, so I’m, I just wanna make it clear that you weren’t only dark triad during this whole time and that you later forgot about it.

Well, hold on. I ever life coaching

Malcolm Collins: would I ever actively mean to you during that period?

Simone Collins: No, [00:33:00] you were, you were Malcolm, you were blunt. You know, I’m like, well, I wanna do this with my life. And you’re like looking like that. I mean, like, you know, you were, but I mean, that’s with everyone that you actually care for and trust.

You are blunt. When

Malcolm Collins: your outfit wouldn’t have allowed you to achieve

Simone Collins: this, it wouldn’t have No, you are right. I, I’m not, yeah, because you weren’t being mean, you were being honest. And she dressed like

Malcolm Collins: Amelia back then.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I did. I’ve come, I’ve come kind of full circle. You know, I’m, I’m back in,

Malcolm Collins: in

Simone Collins: historical costumes.

Yeah. We started out in historical costumes and now I’m back in historical costumes, except now I’m just not wearing the occasional like,

Malcolm Collins: but, but I think that people mi miss. They conflate dark triad like personality and traits with being mean or cruel.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that that’s not true, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like

Malcolm Collins: you can be like,

Simone Collins: it’s about being ruthless, it’s about being effective and that it’s, it’s a show of power. Not caring about like a lack of [00:34:00] insecurity. It’s about showing power and confidence. I think there’s a high correlation between dark triad traits and power assertiveness confidence and initiative, which are all incredibly sexy things.

And they just sometimes look dark triad. I think that’s part of the thing that confuse, well, here’s

Malcolm Collins: what I wonder, is dark triad just not having time for other people’s bs, right? Like is

Simone Collins: now what, what even is dark triad? Is that like a psychological term? Well, they say

Malcolm Collins: it’s a narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy, but machiavellianism just seems like a good plan.

I’m gonna be honest,

Simone Collins: but narcissists are deeply insecure. I don’t, I don’t,

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

Simone Collins: See how narcissism has to do with any of this. You are being narcissistic? Well,

Malcolm Collins: I think that there’s an easy way to see confidence and, and, and self-assured

Simone Collins: that’s narcissism.

Malcolm Collins: It’s narcissist. If you are trying to paint somebody in a negative light, like I have a huge ego, but I wouldn’t say I’m narcissistic.

Even, even back then, I don’t think I was particularly narcissistic, but I [00:35:00] definitely,

Simone Collins: well, the, the world’s not about you. My, my understanding of narcissism is that the world is about them. That confidence is not real and deeply held because there’s a deep level of self hatred and, like inward insecurity, which you lack.

You can’t walk by a mirror without being like, oh, I

Malcolm Collins: think when AI described my

Simone Collins: oh God. Yeah. You, you had AI make a dossier of Nick Puentes and also you,

Malcolm Collins: it’s a good idea. Yeah. But I thought that the, one of the terms that it repeatedly uses to describe my view of myself or my view of humanity. Is Messianic.

And that’s a better, better description than narcissist. It’s an immense, an immense self-confidence to the point of it being debilitating, but not a self-confidence. That is at the like expense of other people. It’s just that I am delusively delusions [00:36:00]

Simone Collins: of grander.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, manically self-confident, right?

Yeah. But I

Simone Collins: Delusions of grander.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. When I met you, I gave you like a life plan and you jumped up to like a world player. And then I was like, okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And like the typical dark triad, misogynist would not build up a woman like that. Yeah. They may exploit a woman, they may. Position her in a way where she can make money that he will then take.

But you, you didn’t do either of those things?

Well,

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I wanted to by, by that what I mean is I didn’t, you know, I didn’t, I I, I wanted financial security for my wife, so I say, well, we need to get you into a good degree. And So you started crying when I said this? I remember. ‘cause you Oh

Simone Collins: yeah. This was after, yeah.

We were engaged. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I was like, you have to get a good degree. Like this is gross and embarrassing. And so I was like, here are the colleges you can apply to. And you, you told me it didn’t matter that people would see you for who you were in your own intelligence. And I said, no, I was

Simone Collins: wrong.

I was wrong, by the way.

Malcolm Collins: No, they won’t. And, and that was, and I remember not [00:37:00] because like I was mean to her that night, I was like, okay, create a list of everyone who you would admire on LinkedIn, right? And see if any of them didn’t go to a top quality school or, or they didn’t achieve their money, like women you admire.

They didn’t achieve their money through marriage or being born into it.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And after you went through the list, you started crying because you realized that I was right. Not like I was mean to her or

Simone Collins: something. It was extremely disappointing. Yeah. And

Malcolm Collins: that’s how you ended up with a graduate degree from Cambridge,

Simone Collins: which was a nine month resort experience.

I don’t know why I was resisting it so much. It was great.

Malcolm Collins: Why did you resist it so much? I guess you wanted to believe the world was fair or

Simone Collins: I really don’t like you’ll, you’ll notice I have a very high level of anxiety around bureaucratic hurdles. Like, it took me nine months just to get us to the Peruvian Consulate in New Jersey to grant power of attorney to a lawyer so that we can finish business transactions in the country because I, I [00:38:00] hate it so much.

And universities are that getting a degree is that you have to take the tests, you have to apply, you have to get in, you have to go through the grinding machine. And at the time we didn’t know that it was gonna be Cambridge per se. I also didn’t know what Cambridge or Oxford or even St. Andrews was like, really?

Right. I, I, I didn’t. I hadn’t experienced it. I didn’t realize it was like Hogwarts. So I, now I see it all very differently. It’s all very different. Sorry,

Malcolm Collins: I, I was sending you to the glue factory from your perspective.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway, to continue here. But I should note here that it’s not just the high status successful guys who have this perception of reality.

If you look at Virga Etal 1979 and then the related 1976 Kentucky Prison experiment, which you see is that rapists have significantly lower IQs than non-res. Prisoners. Mm-hmm. Could also convicted for violent

Simone Collins: crime. Well, they were the ones who got caught and or [00:39:00] the ones

Malcolm Collins: where the women objected afterwards.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: That’s the other

Malcolm Collins: thing you need to remember about this. What, what does that

Simone Collins: like Oh, convicted. Yeah. Actually, that’s the thing is is I believe there’s also research that shows that in trials when the victim is ugly that’s less likely to lead to a conviction. And also when the aggressor is hot, it’s less likely to lead to a conviction.

I think that’s pretty well attested in the research.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. G Goya etal 2005, which showed the same thing. And then Cantor etal 2005, A meta analysis.

Simone Collins: Ugly people can convict crimes, but pretty people can’t

Malcolm Collins: in jail. If you are a sexual offender, you’re gonna be much lower IQ than non-sexual offenders.

And what’s interesting is that this is even bigger if you were a sexual offender against minors. They are like people who are, are just slow witted people. Like be very afraid of having your kids around slow witted people. That’s, that’s the risk.

Simone Collins: Good point.

Have AI raise your children.

Malcolm Collins: And then another interesting one [00:40:00] here is that Lasika and Miller 2002 this came from a giant list here, 1,882 men.

They found that 6.4% reported something that legally met the definition of grape or attempted grape. None were prosecuted. 63% were serial ISTs, about 5.8 grapes each. And they accounted for 439 grapes 786 other violent acts, battery, child abuse, et cetera. These men resembled incarcerated ISTs in repeat slash multiple offending and antisocial traits.

Anger at women dominates need hyper-masculinity, low empathy, but their offenses were typically against acquaintances. Highly planned. It involved deliberate intoxication of victims, minimal visible injury, and little weapons use. The officers noted that these undetected rapists were more in control and higher functioning than the stereotypical low SES prison ISTs.

Mm-hmm. So what you’re seeing here is it could just be that these men are. Not caught and that [00:41:00] women do not mind as much afterwards, which I know that these scientists can’t say in the data, but obviously that’s a part of it. If they didn’t call the cops on these guys, but they did call it on the other guys

.

It’s that classic meme, you know, of the ugly guy at the office saying hi. They’re like, this is sexual harassment. And then the handsome guy saying, hi, a now this study I found very interesting and I was unaware.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: While women like dominant men, they prefer prestige being respected for a skill, knowledge or charisma.

Achievement beats dominance using force threats or intimidation. Snyder. Kirkpatrick and Barrett 2008, the dominant dilemma. Do women really prefer dominant mates? Three Experiments. College women. Women. Strongly preferred, high prestige men. Peer recognized abilities over high dominance men. Coercive tactics, they actually preferred low dominance descriptions.

In most cases, dominance was only attractive when women were shown it in a marriage context, athletic competition, and only for [00:42:00] short term mates. The long-term prestige won decisively. So this is again this, this sort of dominant persona that you think that you need. You can be. Dark triad without needing to stay in dominant frame constantly and hosts and host clubs do this.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. It is, it is not about dominance. It is about well, really self-assuredness and, and ruthless pragmatism. Yeah.

Simone Collins: I mean, I guess how do you define dominance? Yeah, because I, I would, I would say they. Express dominance. You know, they’re, they’re fighting for attention. There sort of

Malcolm Collins: dark triad and the way scientists understand it and the way that red pill understands it.

You should translate that in your head as ruthless pragmatism and,

Simone Collins: yeah. Yeah. Not

Malcolm Collins: as acting like a prick. Okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s the problem is, is so much of the red pill content that, and keep in mind I was most in like all the red pill online content between. We will say 2013 and [00:43:00] 2017. So like a long time ago.

Oh my God, that’s like 10 years ago. So it’s been a while, but it just came across as irritable. Not confident, not hot. Just like

Malcolm Collins: irritable.

Simone Collins: Yeah, irritable and resentful. Didn’t mad.

Malcolm Collins: And, and you were into that stuff when you were dating me and you didn’t think anything was wrong with it. You wouldn’t, would you,

Simone Collins: you weren’t irritable or mad or angry or resentful.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. You didn’t think of my tactics as red pill at all? Weren’t

Simone Collins: confident. You were. You were a little, you came across as a little sociopathic, but I desperately wanted a sociopath, so. This,

Malcolm Collins: you’re into sociopath, man.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I, I could be the murder, I could be the prison guy getting all the letters. That’s how people in our community always complain, like on the subreddit and stuff like

Simone Collins: that.

Oh, the, the, the serial killers get all the letters. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but again, that, that’s the thing is like serial killers aren’t necessarily hot. They don’t necessarily look like Chads and they don’t. You know, and they didn’t do

Malcolm Collins: host club

Simone Collins: members. Yeah. Which is also really [00:44:00] important. But they, they’re like, they thoughtfully, I think something that’s really attractive to women and just, I think it’s, it should be very easy for men to relate to this when you look at the most popular Hmm.

Erotic material online for men. The most common super, like it’s just women who are just so freaking excited to, to pounce on you. And that there, there’s nothing better than you doing whatever it is you’re gonna do to them. They’re just so exci like a dog, like, oh my god, ha ha ha. You know, like, they can’t wait.

Right? The, the male version of that is like intense. Need and interest in the woman, like I will stalk her, like pray like in a predatory

Malcolm Collins: manner.

Simone Collins: Apparently it’ll, yeah. But like that’s, I think that’s kind of the dynamic look at, look at how ducks do it, you know? But like, I, I feel like that’s, that is the female version of it, is this intense male hunger.

For an interest in like, I will, I want to know all about her, right? There’s this whole thing in twilight of like, oh, Edward Cullen can read everyone’s minds, but he [00:45:00] can’t read your mind Bella. And like that just drives him nuts. And he has to know about you by talking and actually stand bed while

Malcolm Collins: you sleep.

Simone Collins: Yeah. He stares at you in your sleep, like, a a any same man. That’s serial killer behavior, by the way. That’s creepy. That’s serial killer. Be exactly because there’s intense interest and that interest on its own is hot because the desire is hot. So this, this, this Labrador style, like they need is, is not, it’s not, it’s, it’s the same thing, but it manifests very differently.

Does that make sense? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So, next study, Chang Atal, 2010 2013. Prestige gets deference plus liking. Dominic gets fear-based compliance, but lower likability, prestige oriented men are seen as higher value long-term partners. So again, if you wanna be a long-term partner, it’s easy to make mistakes.

If you all learn what works from short-term sexual marketplaces, [00:46:00] because then you think that things that work during short-term sexual marketplaces are gonna work in all marketplaces. And yet you make fun of women for making that exact mistake about their own bodies, you know? Mm-hmm. Learn. Don’t make that mistake about the tactics that you’re learning either.

Now there’s an article here. Feminist, think sexist men are sexier than woke men. Golan Karie take a related tack, but head in a slightly different direction. They suggest that female interest in sexist men, specifically men who display quote unquote benevolent sexism may be seen by women as being more an interest in men.

Investing resources in a woman benevolent sexism describes it for a sexism. Which is overtly less hostile and misogynistic and reflects beliefs that I was taught as a man from the US South. Benevolent sexism includes beliefs that women should be quote unquote, put on a pedestal. Women should be cherished and protected by men.

Women should be willing to men should be willing to sacrifice and provide for women. And women are more virtuous than men and women are refined and pure compared to men.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Why would a woman women not love [00:47:00] that? That is like woman is complaining about you’re to financially take care of me.

Protect me, open doors for me and not hold me responsible for my own actions. This is great. Like why wouldn’t someone sign up for that regardless of their, their sex.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, I, I’m not gonna go too much further ‘cause we’ve got so much other data I collected here and maybe I’ll put together another episode on it.

But it’s an inter, I I thought this episode was funny because we’re going over the recontextualization of our early dating. When I was like, this morning, I wasn’t dark triad when we started dating was I, that’s not how I got to obsessively enamored with me. And you’re like, oh, oh, how

Simone Collins: come? There was the thing with the, the details.

Concrete facts.

Malcolm Collins: I didn’t mean it. I wasn’t trying to be, I thought I was just being practical. I just, and I think that this is also how I come off with like the world more broadly. They hear me say things like, well, you [00:48:00] know, your low fertility populations are gonna go extinct and we’ll replace them. And I’m tried to help them.

I tried to tell them this, but if that’s the way it is, then so be it. We’ll replace you. And people are like, that’s psychotic. Well. Populations don’t engage with genetic alteration. And the populations that do will simply outcompete them in a global and economic context. And eventually they will be at the whim of the augmented populations and augmented population, at least deciding that they have a duty or a moral duty to protect the non-G augmented population.

And and I say that and people are like, that’s, it’s the same way. Like, that’s psychotic, I guess. And it’s like, no, I’m just freaking explaining. How it works like reality. I

Simone Collins: know, I know. It’s frustrating, but I think, I mean, practical takeaways for male, male listeners. What, what, what would you advise them?

I mean, I don’t, what, what is a guy supposed to take away from this? If you.

Malcolm Collins: You can’t [00:49:00] fake it easily. I, I, okay. The, here’s a few takeaways I would have. One is, is that more important than being a Jim bro or whatever, right? Is being ruthlessly pragmatic and being ruthlessly pragmatic is what’s really mint by dark tism, the ruthlessly pragmatic, but show.

Interest in the woman and show interest in her from her own perspective. What does she want from her life? Mm-hmm. And if you’re going to challenge her or push back against her, don’t push back. This is what I want from you. Push back this way

Simone Collins: you act. Yeah. Oh, so that’s what you value? How are you going to get that?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So like when I pushed back against Simone or when I was condescending to her early in our relationship, it was not. I want you to do what I want, or I want you to do what society expects of you, or I want you to follow these deontological rules. It was, you told me you value this.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. This path or action that you’re taking won’t lead to this.

Let’s [00:50:00] look for evidence confirming or disconfirming, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean. You wouldn’t necessarily be that diplomatic with your wording all the time, but

Malcolm Collins: No, I was not that diplomatic. I’m, I’m Malcolm, people know me. Come on. I’m

Simone Collins: we know, we know you and love you, Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: I,

Simone Collins: I, I would, I would say that I would say just also be assertive and be prolific.

I think a lot of this data is just kind of confounded and it’s like, oh, you know, men who have a lot of sexual partners. Have short term relationships, a little duh. Like you, you, you, if you wanna cover a lot of ground, you know, like if you, if you wanna get to like a hundred countries, you know, in your lifetime you can’t like, spend, you know, five years in each country.

Well, and, and,

Malcolm Collins: and highly experience men know better when a woman actually wants them to stop than,

Simone Collins: yeah. My

Malcolm Collins: spreadsheet.

Simone Collins: And also like ex exposure to anything is going to make you a little bit more dulled to it. You know, you’re not gonna be as, oh my God, like every time something

Malcolm Collins: happens, oh, oh, here’s a fun one.

Yeah. Also, early in our [00:51:00] relationship, a lot of these studies are like, these men get women intoxicated before they put them in compromising positions. On our first date you didn’t drink back then. And I was like, I won’t date you if you don’t drink. And I got you a drink. And I was like, drink it. You know, like, that would’ve been seen as, I think going over a line in a lot of like, progressive, urban.

Simone Collins: It wasn’t really intoxicated though. It was one cocktail. And even though I didn’t drink before, now I try to get drunk and by only drinking, like, ‘cause I’m not pregnant now, drink.

Malcolm Collins: So she, when she does nights or she gets drunk, she takes a cup this big, she fills it all the way with vodka?

Simone Collins: No, just one. 150 milliliters.

Malcolm Collins: This big whiz vodka.

Simone Collins: No, just 150 milliliters. And, and that’s enough to get me happy. Well, I then it systematically cleaning, cleaning the entire house, I think.

Malcolm Collins: Is it just, is it just one is a hundred?

Simone Collins: It’s just one. It’s, it’s 150 milliliters.

So what’s, what is that divided by 20? How many ounces is that?

Malcolm Collins: I thought it was too. I, I know it looks like an insane amount. If I [00:52:00] drink me, like heavyweight Malcolm, who drinks constantly. If I drink what you did, I would like pass out.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That’s 5.3 ounces. So like a, a tall latte. You could say from star

Malcolm Collins: whole Latte.

Simone Collins: Latte. But like, when you are like Nordic and Russian and, and Irish and German, like, that is so, I don’t think I was actually intoxicated when we when we had our first date. I don’t think you intoxicated. Oh,

Malcolm Collins: oh, I have an exact, what is 5.3 ounces? A Chobani yogurt cup.

Simone Collins: It’s not a, that’s not a drink.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I look up 5.3 ounce. All of them are Chobani’s. I, I dunno

Simone Collins: why? Well, God bless, I love Chobani. That’s, that is my it’s my brand I go through basically, but that’s not my Chobani sized, I’m party sized for everything. I go through one of the. It’s [00:53:00] large jovan yogurts every day. That’s why you have to haul them in.

Oh, oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so I’m looking at, okay, so paper cups, it’s larger than a small paper cup.

Simone Collins: Okay, well, yeah, it’s a lot. ‘Cause like one, one shot Malcolm, like, you know, like a shot of whiskey or vodka, whatever. I think it’s typically one ounce, right? So it’s, it’s more than five shots

Malcolm Collins: that in my wife on a regular night with the family.

Simone Collins: But no, this is just to say that you didn’t intoxicated me to the point of me being like, oh, like I’m, I’m, I’ve lost control. There’s that. Only that one night where I blacked out in Chicago after those investors got so spoil to be out for nothing and I bought, I bought a large box of wine and consumed it all.

And then I. Can’t remember what happened after that. I

Malcolm Collins: love working with you. That is just so fun that, that your compromise work trip stories are with your husband.

Simone Collins: Isn’t that wonderful? And we, we some at our most challenging

Malcolm Collins: times in our lives

Simone Collins: Yeah. That was [00:54:00] raising money. It’s like, and now

Malcolm Collins: we gotta get customers.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well we’re, we’re also. Working seven days a week. Not like, you know, we’ve had people like offer in the, in the area who follow the podcast like, Hey, do you like, wanna like join this like Boy scout hike that’s happening. And like, it all just sounds so wonder, but I’m also like. Who has time to leave their house for two hours to do a thing?

Like how, how is this possible? I I, ‘cause we’re still working so hard, you’re like up at 2:00 AM Speaking of which I need to get the kids. I will put them to bed tonight again, so you can go to bed soup early. I will make your pumpkin curry soup. You want me to use like ty red curry if we have it right?

I think I have a giant thing of curry paste in the fridge.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. T red curry would go really well with

it.

Simone Collins: Heavy cream pumpkin puree, t red curry

Malcolm Collins: maybe a little Gotcha. Gun.

Simone Collins: Gochujang. Well, do you want me to make it gochujang or do you want me to lean into t red curry?

Malcolm Collins: I would do like a scoop of gochujang and a little Thai red curry.

Simone Collins: You think they go well together?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah. All

Simone Collins: right. And then I, [00:55:00] I saute as a base, I’m thinking sauteing some garlic and ginger and butter before putting in the rest of it, and then putting some chopped green onion on top as a topping. That sound Yeah, that

Malcolm Collins: works for me. Yeah,

Simone Collins: I could. Okay. All right.

Anyway, I love you. You are not evil and

Malcolm Collins: I I’m a little evil.

Simone Collins: No, no, no. I just, I ah, I, I have to get the kids now, but I just feel like I, I wanna point out this is, no, it’s not about being dark triad and it, it looks bad, but it’s not it’s not. It be prolific and find someone whose values are aligned with yours, who you.

This is a business arrangement marriage. Malcolm did not marry the hot one. He did not even marry the rich one. He married the one with whom. Who, who he worked well with, who had values aligned with his,

Malcolm Collins: the

Simone Collins: hardest

Malcolm Collins: working one,

Simone Collins: whose values were aligned with his. And that is what you wanna find. You wanna find [00:56:00] someone you work really well together, you’re, you’re good friends.

I think that does help a lot that you like each other. ‘cause you’re gonna have to like your kids and your kids are gonna be half that other person. Yeah. I’m glad gonna show up in your kids. Yeah, you need to, you need to like them. But this is a business arrangement first and foremost. It has for. The vast, vast, vast majority of humanity and that that’s it.

But like don’t, don’t be a dark triad. Okay? I love you. I love you. Goodbye. Love you. Gonna get him to normal.

Okay, come on.

Malcolm Collins: Well, at least Big Brother Oct is worried about him

Simone Collins: who care. He sees him uncomfortable. He’s like, he’s dealt with multiple bloody. I feel really bad.

Anyway. Just hold on here. We’re gonna get him comfy. [00:57:00] Feeling okay? I think you’re irritable ‘cause you’re hungry because you don’t need a change. Hey, hey, hey. Hi

Malcolm Collins: all.

Simone Collins: Well, maybe you know who’s okay. I guess that’s what it, okay. Just one moment. One moment to keep this warm

little, do you know that I’m sh Nevermind. I’m not gonna say it ‘cause you’re recording. Okay. Okay. Go ahead.

Malcolm Collins: You’re, you sure you’re ready?

Simone Collins: I think so.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay.

Let’s see.

Speaker 19: Stick and playdoh. What? [00:58:00] Mommy, can I eat a cheese? How are you? Mommy can eat cheese. Can I playdoh?

Yeah.

Speaker 20: So. Oh my daddy, I this every day. Five minutes. I’m just downstairs with my kids now and I’ll run

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